Re: PIE *kreus-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles"
<the_egyptian_chronicles@...> wrote:

>
> In researching the topic of "crustacea " I came across the following
> dilemma:
>
> PIE has *krus-to- "that which has been hardened," from base
> *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust". Until recently this was
> thought to be exclusively Indo-European. However, this notion can be
> discarded when compared with Classical Arabic (a non Indo-European
> language) which has the term "qrs" with the exact range of
> meanings.
>
> In general, a proto-language is not known directly and its
> reconstruction is only arrived at by comparing different members of
> the language family through the comparative method. Yet an obvious
> complication occurs when the range of the isogloss is spread across
> different language families. In this case, the inclusion of the
> Arabic "qrs" a non Indo-European language. In such a situation,
> the validity of the reconstruction of PIE is brought into question,
> especially in light of Arabic which has two additional synonyms such
> as "gld" for cold/snow and "frs" for frost, rendering a loaned word
> situation less of a probability
>
> If some might then suggest a Nostratic word, then this isogloss
> inclusiveness reinforces further the repelling of *kreus- as a
> valid PIE reconstruction.
>
>
> Below is the data outlining the problem:
>
>
> INDO-EUROPEAN
>
> Crustacea 1814, from Mod.L. neut. pl. of crustaceus (animalia), lit.
> "having a crust or shell," from L. crusta "crust, rind, bark, hard
> shell" (see crust). Taken as a zoological classification by Lamarck,
> 1801; Cuvier (1798) had les insectes crustacées.
>
> crust early 14c., "hard outer part of bread," from O.Fr. crouste
> (13c., Mod.Fr. croûte) and directly from L. crusta "rind, crust,
> shell, bark," from PIE *krus-to- "that which has been hardened,"
> from base *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust" (cf. Skt. krud-
> "make hard, thicken;" Avestan xruzdra- "hard;" Gk. krystallos "ice,
> crystal," kryos "icy cold, frost;" Lett. kruwesis "frozen mud;"
> O.H.G. hrosa "ice, crust;" O.E. hruse "earth;" O.N. hroðr "scurf").
> Meaning "outer shell of the earth" is from 1550s. As a verb, from
> late 14c. Related: Crusted; crusting.
>
>
> CLASSICAL ARABIC "QRS" (from Lisan al-Arab)
>

(لسان العرب)
القَر�'سُ والقِر�'سُ: أَب�'رَدُ الصَ�`قيع
وأَكثره وأَشدُ�` البَر�'دِ

وقَرَسَ الماءَ يَق�'رِسُ قَر�'ساً، فهو
قَرِيسٌ: جَمَدَ.
وقَرَ�`س�'ناه وأَق�'رَس�'ناه: بَرَ�`د�'ناه.
ويقال: قَرَ�`س�'ت الماء في الشَ�`نِ�` إِذا
بَرَ�`د�'ته، وأَصبح الماء اليوم قَرِيساً
وقارساً أَي جامداً؛
وليست ذات قَر�'سٍ أَي بَر�'د.
وقَرَسَ البَر�'دُ يَق�'رِس قَر�'ساً: اشتد�`،
وفيه لغة أُخرى قَرِسَ قَرَساً

والقَرِيس من الطعام: مشتق من القَرَس
الجامِد، قال؛ وإِنما سمي القريس قريساً
لأَنه يجمُد


القَر�'سُ: البَر�'د الشديد،

والبَر�'دُ قارِسٌ وقَرِي�'سٌ، ولا تَقُل
قارِصٌ. وقَرَسَ الماءُ: أي جَمَدَ. ويومٌ
قارِسٌ وليلَةٌ قارِسَةٌ. وأصبح الماءُ
اليومَ قَرِي�'ساً وقارِساً: أي جامِداً

وقَرِس الإنسانُ قَرَساً، إذا لم يستطع أن
يعمل بيديه من شِد�`ة البَرد

>
>
> or you can simply view the respective translation of these
> definitions by clicling the following URL:
>
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/LINKS/QRS.html
>

To make confusion complete you also have

August Fick
Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen
Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit
'frus 1., freusan fraus fruzum fruzana frieren. g. in frius:
an. frjôsa fraus frusum frørinn frieren machen;
ags. fréosan st. vb. frieren, engl. freeze, mnd. vrêsen;
ahd. freosan, mhd. vriesen st. vb. frieren.
Ig. Wz. *prus- frieren und brennen.
Vgl. lat. pruîna (aus prusvīnā), prûna (aus prusnā) glühende Kohle,
prûrîre jucken, brennen. -
skr. pruşvâ Reif, Eis, pruşţa gebrannt, pruşna m. die Sonne, ploşati
versengt, brennt. (248:11)

freusa, fruza n. Frost. g. frius n. Frost;
an. frør, frer n. Frostwetter. (248:12)
frusta m. n. Frost. an. frost n. Kälte, Frost;
as. frost, afries. ags. forst m., engl. frost;
ahd. frost, mhd. vrost m., nhd. Frost m. (248:13)'

which means that both IE and Arabic had both of the roots *qrs- and *prs- "frost, ice", and the alternation q-/p- is equally irregular in both.

BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.

cf.
http://www.20000-names.com/paradise_names.htm
'FIRDAUS (فردوس): Arabic name derived from the word firdaws, "paradise," from Persian pardis/pairidaeza, meaning "enclosure, garden." This is the Arabic name for the highest paradise in the hereafter.'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
>
> *kreu- has a "family" of words that means blood, crust, clotted blood, scab, freeze, cold, ice, raw, corpse, raw meat. I think the original meaning is linked to "crust of clotted blood, scab", later scab > crust > hard substance > ice, or... clotted > raw > dead > cold > frozen 
>

And this
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=crud
would then be a reflex of the un-Grimm-shifted NWBlock version of
*qr-d- (vel sim.). The word 'crud' itself might, pace OED, be a survival in an American English dialect.

On the IE/Arabic p-/q- alternation in this word, cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48486



Torsten