Re: PIE *kreus-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "The Egyptian Chronicles" <the_egyptian_chronicles@...> wrote:
>
> In researching the topic of "crustacea " I came across the following
> dilemma:
>
> PIE has *krus-to- "that which has been hardened," from base
> *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust". Until recently this was
> thought to be exclusively Indo-European. However, this notion can be
> discarded when compared with Classical Arabic (a non Indo-European
> language) which has the term "qrs" with the exact range of
> meanings.
>
> In general, a proto-language is not known directly and its
> reconstruction is only arrived at by comparing different members of
> the language family through the comparative method. Yet an obvious
> complication occurs when the range of the isogloss is spread across
> different language families. In this case, the inclusion of the
> Arabic "qrs" a non Indo-European language. In such a situation,
> the validity of the reconstruction of PIE is brought into question,
> especially in light of Arabic which has two additional synonyms such
> as "gld" for cold/snow and "frs" for frost, rendering a loaned word
> situation less of a probability
>
> If some might then suggest a Nostratic word, then this isogloss
> inclusiveness reinforces further the repelling of *kreus- as a
> valid PIE reconstruction.
>
>
> Below is the data outlining the problem:
>
>
> INDO-EUROPEAN
>
> Crustacea 1814, from Mod.L. neut. pl. of crustaceus (animalia), lit.
> "having a crust or shell," from L. crusta "crust, rind, bark, hard
> shell" (see crust). Taken as a zoological classification by Lamarck,
> 1801; Cuvier (1798) had les insectes crustacées.
>
> crust early 14c., "hard outer part of bread," from O.Fr. crouste
> (13c., Mod.Fr. croûte) and directly from L. crusta "rind, crust,
> shell, bark," from PIE *krus-to- "that which has been hardened,"
> from base *kreus- "to begin to freeze, form a crust" (cf. Skt. krud-
> "make hard, thicken;" Avestan xruzdra- "hard;" Gk. krystallos "ice,
> crystal," kryos "icy cold, frost;" Lett. kruwesis "frozen mud;"
> O.H.G. hrosa "ice, crust;" O.E. hruse "earth;" O.N. hroðr "scurf").
> Meaning "outer shell of the earth" is from 1550s. As a verb, from
> late 14c. Related: Crusted; crusting.
>
>
> CLASSICAL ARABIC "QRS" (from Lisan al-Arab)
>
(لسان العرب)
القَرÙ'سÙ� والقÙ�رÙ'سÙ�: أَبÙ'رَدÙ� الصَÙ`قيع وأَكثره وأَشدÙ�Ù` البَرÙ'دÙ�

وقَرَسَ الماءَ ÙŠÙŽÙ‚Ù'رÙ�سÙ� قَرÙ'ساً، Ù�هو قَرÙ�يسٌ: جَمَدَ.
وقَرَÙ`سÙ'ناه وأَقÙ'رَسÙ'ناه: بَرَÙ`دÙ'ناه.
ويقال: قَرَÙ`سÙ'ت الماء Ù�ÙŠ الشَÙ`Ù†Ù�Ù` Ø¥Ù�ذا بَرَÙ`دÙ'ته، وأَصبح الماء اليوم قَرÙ�يساً وقارساً Ø£ÙŽÙŠ جامداً؛
وليست ذات قَرÙ'سÙ� Ø£ÙŽÙŠ بَرÙ'د.
وقَرَسَ البَرÙ'دÙ� ÙŠÙŽÙ‚Ù'رÙ�س قَرÙ'ساً: اشتدÙ`ØŒ ÙˆÙ�يه لغة Ø£Ù�خرى قَرÙ�سَ قَرَساً

والقَر�يس من الطعام: مشتق من القَرَس الجام�د، قال؛ وإ�نما سمي القريس قريساً لأَنه يجم�د


القَرÙ'سÙ�: البَرÙ'د الشديد،

والبَرÙ'دÙ� قارÙ�سٌ وقَرÙ�ÙŠÙ'سٌ، ولا تَقÙ�Ù„ قارÙ�صٌ. وقَرَسَ الماءÙ�: أي جَمَدَ. ويومٌ قارÙ�سٌ وليلَةٌ قارÙ�سَةٌ. وأصبح الماءÙ� اليومَ قَرÙ�ÙŠÙ'ساً وقارÙ�ساً: أي جامÙ�داً

وقَرÙ�س الإنسانÙ� قَرَساً، إذا لم يستطع أن يعمل بيديه من Ø´Ù�دÙ`Ø© البَرد

>
>
> or you can simply view the respective translation of these
> definitions by clicling the following URL:
>
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/LINKS/QRS.html
>

To make confusion complete you also have

August Fick
Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen Sprachen
Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit
'frus 1., freusan fraus fruzum fruzana frieren. g. in frius:
an. frjôsa fraus frusum frørinn frieren machen;
ags. fréosan st. vb. frieren, engl. freeze, mnd. vrêsen;
ahd. freosan, mhd. vriesen st. vb. frieren.
Ig. Wz. prus frieren und brennen.
Vgl. lat. pruîna (aus prusvīn�), prûna (aus prusn�) glühende Kohle, prûrîre jucken, brennen. -
skr. pruşvâ Reif, Eis, pruşţa gebrannt, pruşna m. die Sonne, ploşati versengt, brennt. (248:11)

freusa, fruza n. Frost. g. frius n. Frost;
an. frør, frer n. Frostwetter. (248:12)
frusta m. n. Frost. an. frost n. Kälte, Frost;
as. frost, afries. ags. forst m., engl. frost;
ahd. frost, mhd. vrost m., nhd. Frost m. (248:13)'

which means that both IE and Arabic had both of the roots *qrs- and *prs- "frost, ice", and the alternation q-/p- is equally irregular in both.

BTW Arabic falastin(?) "Palestine" and firdaws "paradise" shows Arabic must have had a rule *p- -> f- once.

cf.
http://www.20000-names.com/paradise_names.htm
'FIRDAUS (�ردوس): Arabic name derived from the word firdaws, "paradise," from Persian pardis/pairidaeza, meaning "enclosure, garden." This is the Arabic name for the highest paradise in the hereafter.'


Torsten