>And now you have proved that 'Geschlecht' means not just
>"lineage", but "noble lineage".
At last! 6 from 49! Garcon, a bottle of Dom Perignon, svp!
>What you haven't done is provide an example where
>it means "(the estate of) nobility".
This is called Adel. This is called Adelsstand. This
I explained to you at least in my latest post. Hadn't
you insisted, I would have never imagined that a
German speaking intellectual, and a German-speaking
linguist, and a German-speaking Danish linguist at that
needs explanations on these things, on the usage of
Geschlecht and the differences between Adel(sstand) and
Geschlecht. As though you need to be explained the
difference betw. king and kingdom, prince and principality.
But, again, pay attention: above you say "...PROVIDE...
AN EXAMPLE WHERE IT MEANS "(THE ESTATE OF) NOBILITY".
Below, this (the noun) you'll change again
to the adjective!
But first read the examples I randomly found:
(1) OHG gislaht, gislaht "(wohl)geartet"
Antonym: ungislaht > ungeschlacht
< slaht "Gesamtheit der Loden (Schößlinge)
eines Ausschlagstamms"; extended to Sproß,
Generation, Art (ie, Nachkommenschaft of
a certain kind, having the same origin;)
So even the Old High German level slaht fits
Polish szlachta 100% (edle or adelige Sprößlinge)!
(2) knights, gentry:
"Mein Geschlecht seit grauen Zeiten
War - wie Rittersmännern ziemt -
Keck, gestreng' und fast berühmt;
[...]
Nie vergaßen deine Brüder
Dieser großen Ahnen Wert;
Reich und Kaiser schüzt' ihr Schwert"
[...]
Rosig auf zum Jüngling blühte
Bald der Niedre von Geschlecht;
Edler lohnte nie ein Knecht
Seines Pflegers Vatergüte;"
(3)
Lichtenhals chronicle on Elsabetha von Lichtenberg
(beginning of the 14th c.):
"Ein Fraw von Geschlecht und Tugendten Edel, ist
dem Gotteshauß wohl und nutzlich vorgestanden."
(3) Geschlecht = Adelssippe
"Damals erhielt der Kleriker Pilgrim von König
Arnulf reichen Besitz im Zillertal geschenkt.
Erzbischof Pilgrim wurde von der älteren Forschung
durchwegs der mächtigen bayerischen Adelssippe
der ARIBONEN [...] Von Geschlecht kann man um diese
Zeit und auch durch die Quellenlage bedingt kaum
sprechen. Vgl. Schmid K.: Zur Problematik von
Familie und Sippe, Haus und Dynastie beim
mittelalterlichen Adel, Zeitschrift für
Geschichte des Oberrheins 105 Seite 1-57.]
zugewiesen."
(4) "So kam es, dass der Essayist Gerhard v. K.
sämtliche Stände in einer Person vereinigt:
proletarisch von Besitz, bürgerlich von Gesinnung
und adlig von Geschlecht."
(5) "Adelig von Geschlecht, aber noch adeliger durch
die Gnade, eine Jungfrau dem Fleische nach, dem
Geiste nach ganz keusch, an Alter noch ein Mädchen,
aber an Geistesreife eine Greisin, standhaft im
Vorsatz und in Gottesliebe brennend vor heißem
Verlangen."
(6) "nobilis genere, sed nobilior sanctitate
adelig von Geschlecht, aber noch adeliger in
der Heiligkeit"
(7) Sankt Agatha von Catanien:
"Agatha die Jungfrau war edel von Geschecht
und schön von Angesicht und wohnte in der
Stadt Catania;"
(8) "Vornehm, edel von Geschlecht müsst'
der Jüngling doch wohl sein, der dich,
Tochter, dürfte frein!"
(9) JGT Gräße, Gesta Romanorum:
"Sie aber erhob ein lautes Geschrei, und
ein Ritter, edel von Geschlecht und That,
ritt zufällig durch denselben Wald, vernahm
die Stimme der Jungfrau,"
(10) "Steh Still Und Lis Wers Gwesen Ist,
Maria Eleonora Hies Ihr Namm, Vornehm Von
Geschlecht Adelich Von Sta(mm) Von Haus
Prandegg Ist Sie Geboren Mit Herrn"
(ie, "steh still und lies, wer's gewesen
ist, M. E. H. ihr Name, vornehm von
Geschlecht, adelig von stamm, von Haus
Prandegg (Brandeck) ist sie geboren mit
(dem) Herrn")
(11) "Er ist von königlichem Blut, .....
Und von Geschlecht ein König hehr."
(Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, 48,5)
(12) "wie von Ew. Hoch: wohlgeboren, gnädig
und geneigt ... pflegend und genießend,
sich von Geschlecht zu Geschlecht ein
anständig ..." (J. W. v. Goethe)
>I asked you to provide an example where 'von Geschlecht'
>means "noble". It doesn't matter?
Is your keyboard or your google kaputt?
>Yes, you will find many examples of 'von Geschlecht',
>but none where it means "noble", otherwise you would have >triumphantly shown it.
Now, after having read the frish samples, you
may correct yourself. A few lines ago, you were
requesting "nobility" (the state of being an
aristocrate), now you need something for the
adjective. For that, the examples galore containing
Geschlecht. For the other one, nobility, aristocracy,
it is difficult to find "direct" examples, since
the German language tends to use other specialized
words: (höher and niederer) Adel and Adelsstand.
But (and I repeat again and again, perhaps in 20
years you'll understand) depending of the context,
if I tell you "Gestern haben wir ein einer
Konferenz über die Belange des niederen Adels
teilgenommen. Torsten war auch dabei". "Wirklich?
Der ist doch ein Bürgerlicher!" "Nee, der ist
auch von Geschlecht". Also note I write "des Adels"
and not *"des niederen Geschlechts" (which'd be a
nonsense).
>I only protest against lists of useless words if
>I'm presented with lists of useless words.
This is not true: you also reject lists of words
that you can't use because you're not able to see
their usefulness because your linguist's "toolkit"
is of no help in some cases.
>I wouldn't object to a single case of 'von Geschlecht'
>meaning "noble".
Again: YOU MEAN "NOBILITY"! "Noble" is simply rendered
by exactly the syntagm *you* keep repeating ad nauseam:
"VON GESCHLECHT".
>>"Hier gründete der mythische König Francio
>>das nach ihm benannte Geschlecht der Franken".
>Yes, here 'Geschlecht' means "people". But it doesn't
>mean "nobility".
You know that only based on your knowledge of Franks.
But the sentence doesn't tell you that. Only based on
the sentence you can assume that either (1) all the
Franks were called so or (2) only Francio's royal
descendants. Especially knowing, as a German-language
speaker that if you wanna say "all people, the
rank-and-file and grassroots and hoi-polloi included",
then you do not use the word Geschlecht, you'll use
words such as <Stamm>, <Volk>, <Volksstamm>, <Völkerschaft>
and (because they're ruled by kings) <Untertanen>.
>Yes, 'Geschlecht' means not 'lineage' but "noble lineage".
It depends on the context: peasants, craftspeople, merchants,
clergy also have Geschlecht, meaning (1) "social group", and
(2) (today old-fashioned) "generations".
>But it doesn't mean "nobility".
It depends on the context and way of expressing.
If you say "alle Geschlechter waren auf dem Felde
vertreten neben den Agilolfingern und den Welfen.
Auch die niederen Stände, ja sogar einige alten
Bauerngeschlechter aus dem Voralpenland sowie aus
Tirol". Your listener will automatically know
which of the Geschlechter are self-understood as
(and replaceable as a word by) "Adel" and which
of them not.
>By using the weasel word 'nexus' you here avoid
>stating what is the exact connection between
>German 'Geschlecht' and Polish 'Szlachta'.
I don't care, it's not mein Bier. I only "dropped in"
telling my brief impression, because gislaht and
szlachta look like good relatives (brethren of
cousins). How and in which circumstances and which
exact semantic part was attractive to medieval Poles
in order to use Geschlecht or Schlacht (or Ritter
schlagen) I don't know. Maybe someone explains it
to me or maybe sometime later on I'll look it up.
>>collectivity called <der Adel> or <Adelsstand>.
>
>Yes, 'Geschlecht' means "noble lineage"-
No, here your reply should have been: <klatschuffdestirn>
"Heureka, Adel! Adelsstand! These are the words for
nobility I insisted to be shown!"
>'Geschlecht', as can be seen from your textbook
>quotes, was never used in German nor its predecessors
>as a synonym of 'Adel'.
Synonym in the semantic sense: "Jeder der von
edlen Geschlecht ist, ist ein Mitglied des Adels".
Or, in other words, "Jemand von Geschlecht ist
von Adel." (!)
But not as an interchangeable *word*. You can't
replace Geschlecht with Adel or Adel with Geschlecht
as you can Hahn with Gockel or Tischler with Schreiner
or Klempner with Spengler (and even in these cases
the synonymity is not exactly 100%!).
In order to change places with one another,
Adel(stand) and Geschlecht, one has to be in
a good command of German!
>And that was exactly my point: the supposedly
>German
>loans in the central area of activity of the
>Szlachta have a semantics which deviates from
>the German one, which makes me wonder whether
>both languages had those words from a third
>source, ie. Bastarnian/Proto-Hochdeutsch.
I don't know. And, as of "Bastarnian Proto-HG",
the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
>For daring to correct your German?
You corrected a typo, and you're even proud of
that. What can I say? (You seem you're not
accustomed to netiquette either.)
>George sees a church.
Even the confiscation of church property
and the defrocking of superfluous clergy people. :)
>If you think so.
Szlachta is abgehakt because, to me, it is
marginal, I see there is a plausible connection,
I don't see why authors shouldn't be right, I
don't have more info on that (on the time
table and place where German exerted the
decisive influence on Polish).
George