From: Torsten
Message: 67143
Date: 2011-01-23
>Irrelevant. What you haven't done is provide an example where it means "(the estate of) nobility".
>
>
> >And now you have proved that 'Geschlecht' means not just
> >"lineage", but "noble lineage".
>
> At last! 6 from 49! Garcon, a bottle of Dom Perignon, svp!
>
> >What you haven't done is provide an example where
> >it means "(the estate of) nobility".
>
> This is called Adel. This is called Adelsstand. This
> I explained to you at least in my latest post. Hadn't
> you insisted, I would have never imagined that a
> German speaking intellectual, and a German-speaking
> linguist, and a German-speaking Danish linguist at that
> needs explanations on these things, on the usage of
> Geschlecht and the differences between Adel(sstand) and
> Geschlecht. As though you need to be explained the
> difference betw. king and kingdom, prince and principality.
> But, again, pay attention: above you say "...PROVIDE...Yes, please pay attention and don't digress.
> AN EXAMPLE WHERE IT MEANS "(THE ESTATE OF) NOBILITY".
> Below, this (the noun) you'll change again to the adjective!Yes, I asked you to provide an example where 'Geschlecht' means "nobility" and an example where 'von Geschlecht' means "noble".
>Is there an asterisk (*) before 'slaht'? If so, it's a reconstructed form which can't be used as evidence. If not, you're wrong, the OHG slaht means "a lineage", Polish 'szlachta' means 'nobility' (as class).
> But first read the examples I randomly found:
>
> (1) OHG gislaht, gislaht "(wohl)geartet"
> Antonym: ungislaht > ungeschlacht
>
> < slaht "Gesamtheit der Loden (Schößlinge)
> eines Ausschlagstamms"; extended to Sproß,
> Generation, Art (ie, Nachkommenschaft of
> a certain kind, having the same origin;)
>
> So even the Old High German level slaht fits
> Polish szlachta 100% (edle or adelige Sprößlinge)!
> (2) knights, gentry:Yes, his noble lineage, his family.
>
> "Mein Geschlecht seit grauen Zeiten
> War - wie Rittersmännern ziemt -
> Keck, gestreng' und fast berühmt;
> [...]Yes, the lower of lineage, of birth; the 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
>
> Nie vergaßen deine Brüder
> Dieser großen Ahnen Wert;
> Reich und Kaiser schüzt' ihr Schwert"
>
> [...]
>
> Rosig auf zum Jüngling blühte
> Bald der Niedre von Geschlecht;
> Edler lohnte nie ein Knecht
> Seines Pflegers Vatergüte;"
> (3)'von Geschlecht und Tugendten Edel' = "noble wrt lineage and virtues", you can't separate out 'von Geschlecht' here, and it doesn't mean "noble".
> Lichtenhals chronicle on Elsabetha von Lichtenberg
> (beginning of the 14th c.):
>
> "Ein Fraw von Geschlecht und Tugendten Edel, ist
> dem Gotteshauß wohl und nutzlich vorgestanden."
> (3) Geschlecht = Adelssippe'Von Geschlecht kann man ... kaum sprechen.' = "of lineage/family one can ... hardly speak". 'Von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
>
> "Damals erhielt der Kleriker Pilgrim von König
> Arnulf reichen Besitz im Zillertal geschenkt.
> Erzbischof Pilgrim wurde von der älteren Forschung
> durchwegs der mächtigen bayerischen Adelssippe
> der ARIBONEN [...] Von Geschlecht kann man um diese
> Zeit und auch durch die Quellenlage bedingt kaum
> sprechen. Vgl. Schmid K.: Zur Problematik von
> Familie und Sippe, Haus und Dynastie beim
> mittelalterlichen Adel, Zeitschrift für
> Geschichte des Oberrheins 105 Seite 1-57.]
> zugewiesen."
> (4) "So kam es, dass der Essayist Gerhard v. K.'adlig von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> sämtliche Stände in einer Person vereinigt:
> proletarisch von Besitz, bürgerlich von Gesinnung
> und adlig von Geschlecht."
> (5) "Adelig von Geschlecht, aber noch adeliger durch'Adelig von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> die Gnade, eine Jungfrau dem Fleische nach, dem
> Geiste nach ganz keusch, an Alter noch ein Mädchen,
> aber an Geistesreife eine Greisin, standhaft im
> Vorsatz und in Gottesliebe brennend vor heißem
> Verlangen."
> (6) "nobilis genere, sed nobilior sanctitate'Adelig von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> adelig von Geschlecht, aber noch adeliger in
> der Heiligkeit"
> (7) Sankt Agatha von Catanien:'edel von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
>
> "Agatha die Jungfrau war edel von Geschecht
> und schön von Angesicht und wohnte in der
> Stadt Catania;"
> (8) "Vornehm, edel von Geschlecht müsst''edel von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> der Jüngling doch wohl sein, der dich,
> Tochter, dürfte frein!"
> (9) JGT Gräße, Gesta Romanorum:'edel von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> "Sie aber erhob ein lautes Geschrei, und
> ein Ritter, edel von Geschlecht und That,
> ritt zufällig durch denselben Wald, vernahm
> die Stimme der Jungfrau,"
> (10) "Steh Still Und Lis Wers Gwesen Ist,'vornehm von Geschlecht' = "noble by lineage"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> Maria Eleonora Hies Ihr Namm, Vornehm Von
> Geschlecht Adelich Von Sta(mm) Von Haus
> Prandegg Ist Sie Geboren Mit Herrn"
> (ie, "steh still und lies, wer's gewesen
> ist, M. E. H. ihr Name, vornehm von
> Geschlecht, adelig von stamm, von Haus
> Prandegg (Brandeck) ist sie geboren mit
> (dem) Herrn")
>'von Geschlecht ein König' = "by lineage a king"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> (11) "Er ist von königlichem Blut, .....
> Und von Geschlecht ein König hehr."
> (Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, 48,5)
>'von Geschlecht zu Geschlecht' = "from generation to generation"; 'von Geschlecht' does not mean "noble" here.
> (12) "wie von Ew. Hoch: wohlgeboren, gnädig
> und geneigt ... pflegend und genießend,
> sich von Geschlecht zu Geschlecht ein
> anständig ..." (J. W. v. Goethe)
> >I asked you to provide an example where 'von Geschlecht'I asked you to provide an example where 'von Geschlecht' means "noble". It doesn't matter?
> >means "noble". It doesn't matter?
>
> Is your keyboard or your google kaputt?
> >Yes, you will find many examples of 'von Geschlecht',You haven't found a single example where 'von Geschlecht' means "noble".
> >but none where it means "noble", otherwise you would have
> >triumphantly shown it.
>
> Now, after having read the frish samples, you
> may correct yourself.
> A few lines ago, you wereYou haven't found a single example where 'von Geschlecht' means "noble".
> requesting "nobility" (the state of being an
> aristocrate), now you need something for the
> adjective. For that, the examples galore containing
> Geschlecht.
> For the other one, nobility, aristocracy,Put more directly: that sense, "nobility" does not exist for German.
> it is difficult to find "direct" examples, since
> the German language tends to use other specialized
> words: (höher and niederer) Adel and Adelsstand.
> But (and I repeat again and again, perhaps in 20Yes, in that context 'von Geschlecht' would mean "noble".
> years you'll understand) depending of the context,
> if I tell you "Gestern haben wir ein einer
> Konferenz über die Belange des niederen Adels
> teilgenommen. Torsten war auch dabei". "Wirklich?
> Der ist doch ein Bürgerlicher!" "Nee, der ist
> auch von Geschlecht". Also note I write "des Adels"
> and not *"des niederen Geschlechts" (which'd be a
> nonsense).
> >I only protest against lists of useless words ifI never thought I would experience a German recommend the wrong type of tools for a job.
> >I'm presented with lists of useless words.
>
> This is not true: you also reject lists of words
> that you can't use because you're not able to see
> their usefulness because your linguist's "toolkit"
> is of no help in some cases.
> >I wouldn't object to a single case of 'von Geschlecht'No, I mean "noble".
> >meaning "noble".
>
> Again: YOU MEAN "NOBILITY"!
> "Noble" is simply renderedNo, you repeat them them in your lame attempt of finding that sense documented in German.
> by exactly the syntagm *you* keep repeating ad nauseam:
> "VON GESCHLECHT".
> >>"Hier gründete der mythische König FrancioHere's what I know:
> >>das nach ihm benannte Geschlecht der Franken".
>
> >Yes, here 'Geschlecht' means "people". But it doesn't
> >mean "nobility".
>
> You know that only based on your knowledge of Franks.
> But the sentence doesn't tell you that. Only based on
> the sentence you can assume that either (1) all the
> Franks were called so or (2) only Francio's royal
> descendants. Especially knowing, as a German-language
> speaker that if you wanna say "all people, the
> rank-and-file and grassroots and hoi-polloi included",
> then you do not use the word Geschlecht, you'll use
> words such as <Stamm>, <Volk>, <Volksstamm>, <Völkerschaft>
> and (because they're ruled by kings) <Untertanen>.
> >Yes, 'Geschlecht' means not 'lineage' but "noble lineage".No, the word 'Geschlecht' does not mean "nobility".
>
> It depends on the context: peasants, craftspeople, merchants,
> clergy also have Geschlecht, meaning (1) "social group", and
> (2) (today old-fashioned) "generations".
>
> >But it doesn't mean "nobility".
>
> It depends on the context and way of expressing.
> If you say "alle Geschlechter waren auf dem Felde
> vertreten neben den Agilolfingern und den Welfen.
> Auch die niederen Stände, ja sogar einige alten
> Bauerngeschlechter aus dem Voralpenland sowie aus
> Tirol". Your listener will automatically know
> which of the Geschlechter are self-understood as
> (and replaceable as a word by) "Adel" and which
> of them not.
> >By using the weasel word 'nexus' you here avoidYou chose to express yourself that way, because you don't care?
> >stating what is the exact connection between
> >German 'Geschlecht' and Polish 'Szlachta'.
>
> I don't care, it's not mein Bier.
> I only "dropped in"Yes, that's what I said. But their meanings differ in German and Polish.
> telling my brief impression, because gislaht and
> szlachta look like good relatives (brethren of
> cousins).
> How and in which circumstances and whichOr maybe the word is from a third language.
> exact semantic part was attractive to medieval Poles
> in order to use Geschlecht or Schlacht (or Ritter
> schlagen) I don't know. Maybe someone explains it
> to me or maybe sometime later on I'll look it up.
> >>collectivity called <der Adel> or <Adelsstand>.I insisted on no such thing. You introduced 'Adel', which means "nobility", and that fact is irrelevant to the question of whether 'Geschlecht' means "nobility", which it doesn't.
> >
> >Yes, 'Geschlecht' means "noble lineage"-
>
> No, here your reply should have been: <klatschuffdestirn>
> "Heureka, Adel! Adelsstand! These are the words for
> nobility I insisted to be shown!"
> >'Geschlecht', as can be seen from your textbookSynonym has no such sense.
> >quotes, was never used in German nor its predecessors
> >as a synonym of 'Adel'.
>
> Synonym in the semantic sense: "Jeder der von
> edlen Geschlecht ist, ist ein Mitglied des Adels".
> Or, in other words, "Jemand von Geschlecht ist von Adel." (!)Exactly.
>
> But not as an interchangeable *word*. You can't
> replace Geschlecht with Adel or Adel with Geschlecht
> as you can Hahn with Gockel or Tischler with Schreiner
> or Klempner with Spengler (and even in these cases
> the synonymity is not exactly 100%!).
> In order to change places with one another,So if German is your first language, then 'Geschlecht' means "Adel", and if it's not, then 'Geschlecht' does not mean "Adel"?
> Adel(stand) and Geschlecht, one has to be in
> a good command of German!
> >And that was exactly my point: the supposedlyI know.
> >German
> >loans in the central area of activity of the
> >Szlachta have a semantics which deviates from
> >the German one, which makes me wonder whether
> >both languages had those words from a third
> >source, ie. Bastarnian/Proto-Hochdeutsch.
>
> I don't know.
> And, as of "Bastarnian Proto-HG",Nice.
> the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
> >For daring to correct your German?It's a common semantic mistake, based on ignorance
>
> You corrected a typo, and you're even proud of
> that. What can I say?
> >George sees a church.Thank you. Was that so hard? You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble.
>
> Even the confiscation of church property
> and the defrocking of superfluous clergy people. :)
>
> >If you think so.
>
> Szlachta is abgehakt because, to me, it is
> marginal, I see there is a plausible connection,
> I don't see why authors shouldn't be right, I
> don't have more info on that (on the time
> table and place where German exerted the
> decisive influence on Polish).