From: Torsten
Message: 67138
Date: 2011-01-23
>I have a suspicion you are going to spring a surprise on us... Have you been looking in Møller's Vergleichendes indogermnisch-semitisches Wörterbuch?
> aþalja u. Geschlecht, Wesen, adj. aus edlem Geschlecht. an. eli, øli n. Natur, Wesen; as. athali n. edles Geschlecht, athali, etheli edel, ags. æþele adj. edel, æþelu f. edle Herkunft; ahd. edili, mhd. edile, edil von gutem Geschlecht, edel, nhd. edel.
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> Eðele (Aethel): The Germanic Concept Of The Noble According to Emile Benveniste
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> I have scanned Benvenisteâs famous article, entitled: âRoyauté et Noblesseâ which deals with the Germanic term Eðele âAthelâ. The article reveals how some linguists like to talk off the tops of their heads when it comes to dealing with etymology. I am including the article in its entirety for you to read and hopefully comment upon. Please read it fully, and pay special attention to the conclusion he reaches in the last paragraph.
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> Le Vocabulaire des Institutions Indo-Européennes, par Emile Benveniste 2- Pouvoir, Droit, religion. Tome II, Royauté et Noblesse, p 85-88, Les Editions De Minuit, 1969,
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> "Quite different is the Germanic conception of the noble, which is expressed by the German edel, and it poses a much more difficult problem. The word appears in Old English, in Middle English, and in Old High German in forms which do not show great differences from those in use today. They all go back to an ancient *atalo-, cf. Old Norse edal, which alternates with uodal, corresponding to German Adel "the Nobility".This reconstructed Germanic form *atalo- has no etymological connexions and appears to be quite isolated.
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> However, there is a form which corresponds to it but has an entirely different sense: this is the Greek atalos" childish, infantile, puerile". This, adjective may be linked with the verb atallo (the translation of which would be "play like a child, jump, amuse oneself''). Finally we have a reduplicated present atitallo feed a child, rear it'. All this is not very precise in Greek itself; but the main point is that it is difficult to see any point of contact with the notion designated by the Germanic group. Because of this disparity of meaning, the etymological dictionaries scout this connection.
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> All the same it is worth while giving close scrutiny to the sense of the Greek words. Our research will lead to another realm of the vocabulary, but we shall still be dealing with institutions.
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> While the verb atallo is hardly attested at all, we have numerous examples of atitallo and it has a much more precise sense than rear, feed. Certainly it is used together with trepho feed, bring up: e.g. Il 24, 60. 'I fed him and reared him'; but we may also quote Odyssey (18, 323):: 'she had brought him up like a child'. These two passages contain the essential significance: 'rear like a child', that is as if he were a member of the family, which was not actually the case.
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> In all the examples the verb is exclusively applied to a child who is not one's own child, like Hera for Achilles' mother (Il. 24, 60). It was never used in speaking of one's own child. Hesiod also takes it in this sense (Theog. 480).
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> We now see what this verb refers to. It denotes an institution which is known under the scientific term of 'fosterage', the use of a foster-parent. This is a very important custom, particularly in Celtic and Scandinavian society, and it was the rule in the case of royal children. Noble families had the custom of entrusting their children to another family to be reared until a certain age. This was a real relationship, often stronger than the blood tie, which was established between the two families. In the ancient Scandinavian law codes there are laws, called gragas, which define the status of the child so entrusted and the conduct of the parents who are to rear it. Among the Celts the fact is well known from historic traditions and the legends. Normally the royal children are confided to another family, generally that of the mother, that is to the maternal grandfather of the child. There is a special term to designate the foster-father: this is aite, which corresponds to the Latin atta, theGreek atta, and the verb which designates this custom is in Scandinavian fostra. Hubert, in his book on the Celts, cites many witnesses to this institution. Fosterage is also well attested among the Caucasian nobility, especially in Georgia.
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> We may now posit the existence of this institution in Greece itself, where it is to be recognized in the verb atitallo. There must have been other terms relating to this notion, but they have been preserved only by chance. Thus we have an inscription from Gortyna in Crete which presents the word atitaltas, which certainly designates the tropheus or foster father.
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> Now that we have determined the institutional sense of this verb, we find traditions which may be connected with it. We recall how Achilles was brought up by Phoenix (Il. 9, 485-495) or, according to a different tradition, by Chiron. If we explored mythical and legendary traditions, we would be sure to discover other confirmations: the essential point it to be able to identify and designate this custom. We may be sure that atitallo was applied solely to children reared outside their own family, whatever the reason may have been, whether to escape from some danger or to be brought up in certain tradition. We may now proceed to an examination of this root *atalo- of the Greek adjective. It has a striking resemblance to the Tocharian atal, but this word simply means man and it is not possible to tell whether this is not a simple coincidence.
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> The formation itself of atalos suggests that it is a derivative in -lo- from the word which is represented by atta, a word denoting father, which is known all over the Indo European World: e.g. Gothic atta, Latin atta father, Sanskr. itatti, feminine, a familiarly term for the elder sister, Irish aite, Hittite attas father (the word pater does not appear in Hittite).
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> The form atta is always regarded, because of its geminated consonant, as a word of the child's language (cf. pappa, mamma).
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> "However the Irish form aite takes on a special significance because the institution of fosterage still existed in Ireland in historical times: aite is the term for the foster-father and not for the natural father. It is perhaps not an accident that Telemachus addresses Eumaeus by the term atta, if atta was the specific name for foster-father in Greek.
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> At the conclusion of this study we return to the Germanic edel (Aethel). If it was the tradition of great families, particularly royal families, to entrust their children to foster-fathers, it might follow that the very fact of being so brought up would imply a degree of nobility. Edelin that case would simply have meant the 'nursling', with the implication that children brought up by foster-parents could only be of noble birth. This would give precision to the relationship indicated by OHG adal' race' and OE adelu noble origin, etc. In this way some scattered fragments of a prehistoric tradition would, on this hypothesis, find their original unity and the correspondence of form would agree with the sense posited. " (Emile Benveniste)
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> Ishinan: IMHO, it is basically word salad . . . . it kind of reminds me of the incoherent rambling nonsense that Sarah Palin spews out, with the exception that some of his words have more than one syllable.
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