Re: Geschlecht (clan, lineage, nobility)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >>Das westfälische Geschlecht ZUM EGEN (auch: ZUMEGEN geschrieben),
> >>das bereits 1635 in Hattingen im Ennepe-Ruhrkreis, ab 1637 in
> >>Darup im Kreis Coesfeld, ab 1677 in Nottuln im Kreis Münster
> >>und ab 1693 in Buldern im Kreis Coesfeld erscheint, ist nicht
> >>adelig.
>
> A useful example (of all those Google finds randomly). The
> author deals with the family zum Egen because many think
> it is a noble clan. The author explains it can't be, since
> this surname isn't mentioned in certain lists. And this could
> imply that no competent authorities has ever attested this
> family's nobility status.
>
> It is significant that, although <Geschlecht> also simply
> means "family, clan, Stamm, Sippe, Sippschaft, gens/genus,
> tribe, Volksstamm" etc., the author does not use for it
> the common words <Familie>, <Sippe>, <Stamm>, <Familienband>,
> <Familienverband>, <Haus>, <Gemeinschaft> etc. (the Yiddishism
> Mischpoke, a synonym for Familie, Sippe, Geschlecht, would
> fit only if the author would have derided the family, if
> he'd written a mockery).
>
> He takes <Geschlecht> exactly because zum Egen people are,
> by and large, seen as a noble group, and his purpose
> is to show the perception is erroneous.
>
> >>Würde das Geschlecht zum historischen Adel gehören,
>
> In its *usage* <Geschlecht> has (in many if not most
> cases) the connotation "ein besonderer Stamm, eine
> vornehme Familiengruppe" (privileges, social status
> etc.).
>
> If it weren't so, he'd have written <Familie>,
> <Sippe>, and <Stamm>. But he still uses <Geschlecht>
> although he seems to have a poin: namely that this
> family isn't aristocratic.
>
> >>dann würde es in dem mir vorliegenden „Adelslexikon",
> >>herausgegeben vom Deutschen Adelsarchiv, Band III
> >>(Buchstaben Dor-F), Limburg a.d. Lahn 1975, genannt sein.
> >>Dies ist jedoch nicht der Fall.
> >>Zwar gibt es in Tirol eine Adelsfamilie VON EGEN, die 1644
> >>eine kaiserliche Bestätigung ihres Adelsstandes erhielt,
> >>doch ist diese Familie nicht identisch mit der westfälischen
> >>Familie ZUM EGEN.
> >>
> >>http://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=9617

And now you have proved that 'Geschlecht' means not just "lineage", but "noble lineage". What you haven't done is provide an example where it means "(the estate of) nobility".

> >You didn't get it, did you? The expression 'von Geschlecht' does
> >not occur in your quotes.
>
> It doesn't matter.

I asked you to provide an example where 'von Geschlecht' means "noble". It doesn't matter?

> <Geschlecht> *per se* has the connotation
> "von vornehmer Abstammung, von edlem Geblüt, mit dem Silberlöffel
> im Mund geboren, hochwohlgeboren" etc. I already underlined
> a few times: its meaning & __usage__ depend on the context
> (on what's to be said).

An example of 'von Geschlecht', please?

> Search yourself via Google "von Geschlecht"+"adelig"; or
> +"adlig"; +"Adel"; +"vornehm"; +"Abstammung"; +"Herkunft"
> and other words that would separate <Geschlecht "sex; gender">
> from <Geschlecht "origin, genealogy">. You'll get many useful
> examples of usage in contexts where <von> can be "tagged"
> to <Geschlecht>.

Yes, you will find many examples of 'von Geschlecht', but none where it means "noble", otherwise you would have triumphantly shown it.

> If I search them myself, I'll wast my time, coz you'll
> again protest against lists of "useless" words.

I only protest against lists of useless words if I'm presented with lists of useless words. I wouldn't object to a single case of 'von Geschlecht' meaning "noble".

> I'm only inserting this simple sentence (out of a
> wikipedia article):
>
> "Hier gründete der mythische König Francio
> das nach ihm benannte Geschlecht der Franken".
>
> Although we know that <Geschlecht> can mean "descendants,
> family, clan, dinasty" or even "tribe, nation (of the Franks),"
> there's no need to add <edles> or <adeliges> or <Adels-> etc.
>
> Even without a context, the word <König> suffices. Weren't
> the idea (assertion) "the reason for them being called
> Franken is that the name of one of their kings was Francio",
> then there would be no need to use <Geschlecht>.
> <Familie>, <Stamm>, <Volk>, <Volksstamm> etc. will do.
>
> <Das Geschlecht der Franken> must have been "noble"
> for in a certain period; or at least those families
> (<Geschlechter>) that had relevant positions at the
> king's court.

Yes, here 'Geschlecht' means "people". But it doesn't mean "nobility".

> >you will post a listing twice as long of German expressions
> >where 'Geschlecht' mean 'a noble lineage' (but not 'the nobility').
>
> Whoever has a noble lineage belongs to the nobility.

Whoever holds a share is a shareholder. But he isn't a share.

> (To get this certified, it is a simply bureaucratic
> action for that person to show his/her evidence to an
> authorised body & that's it. You can belong to the
> nobility even lacking a noble lineage: see adoptions
> and marriages.)
>
> What's linguistically (semantically, stylistically) important:
> the lexical selection <Geschlecht> in certain contexts is not
> a mechanical substitution (<Familie, Stamm, Sippe>). It is
> usually used whenever there is a nobility context or some
> irony or satyre in use. This is so due to tradition.

Yes, 'Geschlecht' means not 'lineage' but "noble lineage". But it doesn't mean "nobility".

> And the usage has some history:
>
> OHG <gislahti>:
> "das, was in dieselbe Richtung schlägt;
> Geschlecht, Stamm, Stammbaum, Abstammung,
> Herkunft, Spross, Sprössling"
>
> MHG <geslahte, geslehte>.
>
> (NB: the extremity of its general semantics, as a "group",
> is <Menschengeschlecht> "human race, humanity, man". The
> meaning "generation" (people of a certain age/epoch)
> is old-fashioned today.)
>
> Conclusion:
>
> (a) depending on context and the skills for creating
> idiomatically and stylistically good German sentences,
> <das Geschlecht> can stand alone, un"prefixed" by nouns
> such as <Adels-, Königs-, Kaisers-, Fürsten-> etc.;
> and even without adjectives (ie, <adlig, edel, vornehm,
> hochwohlgeboren>);

True.

> (b) the relevant meaning of it is very old (OHG);
> today, this term with these connotations isn't as
> frequently used as it was a few centuries ago (for
> obvious historic-social-political reasons).

Yes, its meaning of "noble lineage" is very old.

> (c) the nexus <geslahte> > <Geschlecht> & szlachta in
> Polska seems plausible and logical (semantics,
> phonetics, historical events & developments).

By using the weasel word 'nexus' you here avoid stating what is the exact connection between German 'Geschlecht' and Polish 'Szlachta'.

> (d) <Geschlecht> in this part of the discussion is
> a certain *group, collectivity* within the entire
> collectivity called <der Adel> or <Adelsstand>.

Yes, 'Geschlecht' means "noble lineage"-

> In contemporary German, the cases in which for
> style/rhetoric reasons <Geschlecht> might be used
> as a synonym of <Adel> are, of course, quite rare.

'Geschlecht', as can be seen from your textbook quotes, was never used in German nor its predecessors as a synonym of 'Adel'.

> But the fact that in German the collectivity of
> noblepeople are called <Adel> (<niederer Adel> and
> <Hochadel>), whereas <Adel> in Poland is called
> <szlachta>, is no problem: in far too numerous
> cases, the loanword usage in a borrower language
> is not used exactly as in the initial language.

And that was exactly my point: the supposedly German loans in the central area of activity of the Szlachta have a semantics which deviates from the German one, which makes me wonder whether both languages had those words from a third source, ie. Bastarnian/Proto-Hochdeutsch.

> >Bei meinem Leisten, meinst du wohl.
>
> Erraten, gscheiter Bua (kriagst a Keks).

For daring to correct your German?

> (Who sees the ant climb up the church
> spire but doesn't the church.)

George sees a church.

> >Aber das *ist* mein Leisten.
>
> Dies auch noch herauszuposaunen angesichts des
> Dargelegten!

Erh...

> Jo mei, sehr mutig. Um beim Leistenbild
> zu bleiben: So ein z'amm'geschustertes Schuwerk
> missfiele auch einem Prokrustes.

Nothing wrong with your self-confidence.

> (Auch "szlachta" abgehakt.)

If you think so.


Torsten