From: Torsten
Message: 66655
Date: 2010-09-27
>http://tinyurl.com/39smyu4
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > I wondered if there was once in Latin a situation where the
> > > > > descendant of PIE *j (zero grade of *i) had two socio-
> > > > > allophones:
> > > > > a 'sacred' *j, and
> > > > > a 'profane' *d3,
> > > > >
> > > > > and that the names of some gods by hypercorrection got *j-
> > > > > for PIE *d-j- > *dj-
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)#Etymology
> > > > >
> > > > > Ernout-Meillet
> > > > > 'Diana, -ae
> > > > > (DÄ«Äna, Ov.M.8,353;.
> > > > > DÄ«viÄna, Varron, si ce n'est pas une reconstruction
> > > > > étymologique sans réalité;
> > > > > IÄna LÅ«na, forme attribuée aux rÅ«sticÄ« par Varron,
> > > > > R.R.1,37,3)
> > > > > f.: Diane, déesse nocturne, c.-à -d. Lune:
> > > > > Dianam autem et Lunam eandem esse putant, Cic., N.D.2,68;
> > > > > proprement "la lumineuse",
> > > > > dicta quia noctu quasi diem efficerat, Cic., ibid.3,69;
> > > > > cf. Iuppiter DiÄnus.
> > > > > Diane est la déesse qui préside aux opérations magiques, et
> > > > > son nom est demeuré dans les langues romanes avec le sens de
> > > > > "fée, sorcière", etc., M.L. 2624. Sans doute dérivé de dīus
> > > > > par un intermédiaire *dīuius?; cf. étr. tiv; la scansion
> > > > > d'Ovide a gardé la quantité ancienne.
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > diū, dius (ū?): pendant le jour.
> > > > > Ancien cas de die:s (v. ce mot) conservé dans la locution
> > > > > noctū diūque (usité seulement chez les archaïques et les
> > > > > archaïsants), et dans interdiū, plus tard interdie: d'après
> > > > > hodie:, etc. Il est probable que noctū a été fait d'après
> > > > > diū "de jour". Mais le dérivé diurnus, fait sur diu-, doit
> > > > > l'avoir été d'après nocturnus, cf.
> > > > > gr. νÏκÏÏp "de nuit",
> > > > > νÏκÏεÏοÏ, Î½Ï ÎºÏεÏινÏÏ "nocturne".
> > > > > dius: même sens que le précédent, 2 ex. dans la locution
> > > > > noctū diusque Pl., Mer.882, Tit., Com.13. On a aussi
> > > > > interdius, perdius (Gell., fait secondairement sur pernox).
> > > > > Dius peut être un génitif (cf. l'emploi de noctis, Î½Ï ÎºÏÏÏ et
> > > > > les génitifs skr. diváh., gr. δι(F)ÏÏ), ou une formation
> > > > > analogique, comme le génitif skr. dyÏh..
> > > > > V. die:s.'
> > > > >
> > > > > Why else *djou- -> Jou- in Jupiter and diu- otherwise?
> > > >
> > > > Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> > > > sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>? I think
> > > > instead we should be looking at a Sabine Latin dialect (not
> > > > Sabine itself, just as Irish English is not Irish itself).
> > > > The gemination of <Juppiter> beside expected *Diu:piter (from
> > > > the IE vocative) has parallels in <futtilis> 'easily emptied,
> > > > leaky, useless' beside <fu:tilis> and <vitta> 'band, ribbon,
> > > > fillet' beside expected *vi:ta. These two words are hardly
> > > > "sacred"; probably they come from the same rustic Sabinizing
> > > > dialect as <Ja:na>. Obviously <Ja:nus>, name of the god of
> > > > transitions, is based on IE *yeh2- 'to go from one place to
> > > > another' and has no etymological connection with <Dia:na>, but
> > > > confusion had already arisen in late antiquity due to the
> > > > rustic form <Ja:na>.
> > > >
> > > > Varro says "arae Sabinam linguam olent" which I take to mean
> > > > not that the sacrificial priests spoke Sabine, but that they
> > > > used a Sabinizing dialect of Latin with technical terms
> > > > derived from Sabine. I have argued elsewhere that <sulphur>,
> > > > <mamphur>, and <scintilla> owe their peculiar consonantism to
> > > > this dialect, these words originally denoting objects used in
> > > > the fire-starting ritual (and I am now inclined to add
> > > > <ra:menta> to this group). In my view Sabine Latin was used
> > > > by the sacrificial priests, by a segment of the Roman
> > > > underclass, and by certain rustics, but I have found no
> > > > concrete evidence of differentiation among the three
> > > > sub-dialects.
> > >
> > > Frankly, how does this stated opinion rhyme with your initial
> > > 'Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> > > sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>?'?
> >
> > My opinion is that the bumpkins used a rustic Sabine Latin
> > dialect, and the sacrificial priests used a closely related
> > dialect. I see no compelling reason to postulate a "sacred
> > sociolect".
>
> But you just did that yourself? Actually, I never used the word
> 'sociolect', but okay, if the sacrificial priests spoke a dialect
> closely related to a rustic Sabine Latin as you claim, (which I did
> too) then they spoke a 'sacred sociolect'.
>
>
> > > > > The 'profane' allophone *d3 would then have become the norm
> > > > > in that late Latin from which the Romance languages (minus
> > > > > Romanian?) developed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Under die:s in Ernout-Meillet, I found
> > > > > 'D'une racine *dei- "briller" (dans skr. ádīdet "il
> > > > > brillait"), qui est médiocrement attestée, l'indo-européen
> > > > > avait deux formations comportant des élargissements,
> > >
> > > > > l'une en *-eu-, désignant le "ciel lumineux", le "jour"
> > > > > (considérés comme des forces actives, divines),
> > >
> > > > > l'autre en *-en-, qui a subsisté seulement au sens de
> > > > > "jour".
> > >
> > > > > Les deux sens ont subsisté en latin.'
> > > > >
> > > > > Which made me wonder if it could be reduced to one root,
> > > > > *diÅ which > *diw- and *din- (*Å > w and n happens in Baltic
> > > > > Finnic).
> > > > >
> > > > > But then I discovered I already proposed that
> > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65539
> > > > >
> > > > > The Altaic part of that root:
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/27souut
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2eo76gh
> > > > >
> > > > > It makes one wonder whether the Sky God
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Father
> > > > > in Indo-European is a loan from the outside (as he was in
> > > > > Altaic)?
> > > >
> > > > I think E-M are on the right track with root-extensions.
> > >
> > > I think they're not. Semantics-less 'extensions' should not be
> > > used in the description of a language. I think it's *-eÅ (and a
> > > Rozwadowski's change variant *daÅ- in Germanic *dag- etc ?),
> > > which showns it's non-IE.
> >
> > The extensions have semantics, but they are difficult to determine
> > at this time-depth.
>
> The two presumptive extensions both change a root meaning "light,
> day; god" into stems meaning "light, day; god". They are
> semantics-less and there is no amount of deferring the question
> which will turn them into anything else.
>
> > Nevertheless I think *-g^H- clearly means 'inside, within, etc.'.
>
> Where? What? How?
>
> >
> > > > Whether or not the Sky Father's "Jovian" religion came from
> > > > outside IE, scattered pieces of evidence point to an earlier
> > > > solar religion.
> > > > I suspect that Jovian evangelists insisted, using whatever
> > > > force they found necessary, that the Sun was not a god but a
> > > > mere inanimate object. And the old name for the Sun,
> > > > *h2aws-el- 'the Shining One' vel sim., was replaced by a
> > > > tabuistic metathetic form *sah2w-el-, originally construed in
> > > > the neuter. But survivals of the old system persist in Lat.
> > > > <auster>, discussed earlier, Sab. <ausel> 'the Sun' (according
> > > > to Festus the source of the gentilicium <Aurelius>), and the
> > > > relics of south-facing augury, which was superseded by
> > > > east-facing augury under the Jovian system.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Anything cluttered with laryngeals gets me suspicious of origin
> > > elsewhere. If the language of *saÅ-l- "hole (in the sky"
> > > http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191
> > > includes Schrijver's 'language of bird names' with its *a-
> > > (*aÅ- ?) prefix, the *saÅ-l- above would have a side form
> > > *a(Å)-saÅ-l-.
> >
> > Further comments will follow.
> >
>
> I'm looking forward to them.