Re: bhavangacitta

op 14-07-2001 13:49 schreef Ong Teng Kee op ongtkee@...:

>
> It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
> javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
> Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience something?
> The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same in
> 8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but it
> is passive as mentioned in VM.
>
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:
>>
>> This question highlights a question I've had since
>> beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that makes
>> 'an unpleasant object' unpleasant?  By that I don't
>> mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the object.
>> Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on my of
>> part.
>>
>> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
>>
>> It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able
>> to
>> experience an
>> unpleasant object because that would entail an
>> accompanying unpleasant
>> feeling.  From my understanding, only somanassa or
>> upekkha feelings can
>> accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?
>>
>> Dear Jim and all,
>
> Jim is right that only somanassa and upekkhā can accompany pa.tisandhicitta,
> bhavangacitta and cuti-citta. This does not mean that the bhavangacitta that
> is akusala vipāka cannot experience an unpleasant object, it does so,  since
> it is the result of akusala kamma. This does not entail an accompanying
> domanassa vedanaa, which feeling accompanies only the two types of
> dosa-múlacitta. Vipāka should be distinguished from akusala citta. The
bhavangacitta
> is vipākacitta, and, since it is citta it must experience an object, there is
> no citta that does not experience an object. Citta "thinks" of an object
> (cintati), it clearly cognizes an object.
> Seeing arising now is vipākacitta, it experiences either a pleasant object or
> an unpleasant object, but how could we find this out, since vipāka is so
> short. There are so many moments of them experiencing objects through the six
> doors. Robert has given examples before, illustrating the many different
> moments of vipāka and how difficult to distinguish between them. Seeing is
> accompanied by upekkhā, also when the object is unpleasant. Afterwards dosa
> accompanied by unpleasant feeling can arise. Is it important to know whether
> an object is pleasant or unpleasant? Speculation does not help us at this
moment, it has happened already when vipaakacitta has arisen and fallen
away. It matters more whether there is wise
> attention or unwise attention to it. When, in the course of life, the
> vipākacitta that is kāyavi~n~naana arises, it is accompanied by either
> dukkhavedanaa or by sukhavedanaa, because the impact is more violent, it is
> not accompanied by upekkhaa. But, these feelings are just vipaaka, they are
> not accompanying kusala citta or akusala citta.
> When akusala kamma produces rebirth in hell, many moments of
> body-consciousness that is akusala vipāka are bound to arise, accompanied by
> dukkha vedanā that is vipāka.  And then followed by akusala cittas accompanied
> by domanassa. These arise in processes in the course of life, they are
> different from bhavangacitta.
Thank you very much, Jim, for sending the Co and subco, I shall use these as
my exercises, very interesting. Jon suggested that I would translate the co
and subco about unestablished for dsg, but  I feel relieved that you are
working on it. I can use these just as my exercises. Kaara.naa: I thought:
by reason of, thus: because of being unestablished.