Dear James and John,

If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),

Metta, Bryan

--- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:

From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
















 









Dear John,



The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the

structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means

to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect

'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



With metta,



James



From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

palistudent

Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22

To: Pali@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna



Dear Jayarava and others,



I think it can be interpreted more like this:



"When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one

endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are

possessed of their proximate cause."



The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame

and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and

moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense

faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.



With metta,

John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"

<jayarava@...> wrote:

>

> Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

>

> satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

>

> Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is

mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

>

> The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

>

> Thanks

> Jayarava

>



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