Dear James and Bryan,

Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur.
Or, put another way, X 'has' the conditions for it's existence.

With metta,
John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
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> Dear James and John,
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> If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),
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> Metta, Bryan
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> --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
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> From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
> Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
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> Dear John,
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> The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
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> structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
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> to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
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> 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.
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> With metta,
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> James
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> From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
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> palistudent
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> Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
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> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
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> Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
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> Dear Jayarava and others,
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> I think it can be interpreted more like this:
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> "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
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> endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
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> possessed of their proximate cause."
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> The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
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> and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
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> moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
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> faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.
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> With metta,
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> John
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> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
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> <jayarava@> wrote:
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> > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
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> > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
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> upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
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> > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
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> mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
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> > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
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> > Thanks
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> > Jayarava
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