Jeff,
Thanks for raising such an interesting topic. These are indeed
difficult words to translate accurately in English. Concerning
their application in the jhanas, I think you're right on in
interpreting them as applied and sustained concentration.

I learned from Sister Dipankara (a Burmese bhikkhuni from the Pau
Auk monastery) that vitakka means turning the mind strongly to the
object of concentration, and vicara is the holding of one's
attention firmly on that object. Knowing a little French as I do,
it appears that the translations Ivan gave us capture this well too.

metta,
John
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" <macdocaz1@...>
wrote:

> Hello Ivan, and thank-you for your very interesting contribution to
> this dialog. It seems that firm-grip and sustained-grip might
> indicate concentration. I do not know what else it would.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jeff Brooks
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "societe_bouddhiste_gotama"
> <societe_bouddhiste_gotama@...> wrote:
> > In the recent French translation of the Visuddhimagga (which, in
> > fact, is the best one, surpassing a lot the English translation

of

> > Nanamoli), Christian Maës transaltes vittakka and vicaara

as "prise-

> > ferme" (firm-grip) and "application-soutenue" (sustained-
> > application) and thus does not make any reference to the

thinking-

> > process.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > with metta,
> > Ivan
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@... wrote:
> > > A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka'
> > and 'vicára'
> > >
> > > I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as

a

> > means of
> > > providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative
> > experiences. Through
> > > this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like
> > errors in
> > > translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of
> > those words that seem
> > > to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a

copy

> > of a
> > > definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from
> > NYANATILOKA's, Manual of
> > > Buddhist Terms and Doctrines.
> > >
> > > There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka'

and 'vicára'

> > as
> > > "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> > sustained thought')."
> > > I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one

arrive

> > at jhana
> > > through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective
> > investigation through
> > > meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and

reasoning.

> > >
> > > I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali

words

> > > "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit,

such

> > as "applied and
> > > sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana.

On

> > the Jhana Support
> > > Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief
> > that "intellectual
> > > investigation," or "applied and sustained thought,"

or "thought-

> > conception and
> > > discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than

ignorance

> > delusion and doubt
> > > (dukkha).
> > >
> > > I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be
> > better
> > > translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns
> > one's mind," or "applies
> > > and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It

is

> > however
> > > possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make

the

> > distinction
> > > between concentration and discursive thinking.
> > >
> > > Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss

this

> > further,
> > > then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list,

or on

> > the Jhana
> > > Support Group.
> > >
> > > Kindest regards,
> > >
> > > Jeff Brooks
> > >
> > > Jhana Support Group
> > > A support group for ecstatic contemplatives
> > > website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
> > > Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > From the Buddhist Dictionary
> > > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
> > > by NYANATILOKA
> > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm
> > >
> > > vitakka-vicára
> > >
> > > 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> > sustained
> > > thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of

the

> > mind, the
> > > so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are
> > constituents of the 1st
> > > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions.
> > >
> > > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a

thought,

> > giving it
> > > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the

consciousness

> > to the
> > > object.
> > >
> > > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and

moving

> > to and fro
> > > of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of

mind"

> > (Vis.M. IV).
> > >
> > > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its
> > resounding;
> > > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis .

IV.).