Thank-you John, for your kind support on this interesting, and
somewhat troublesome translation.

Kindest regards,

Jeff Brooks

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> Thanks for raising such an interesting topic. These are indeed
> difficult words to translate accurately in English. Concerning
> their application in the jhanas, I think you're right on in
> interpreting them as applied and sustained concentration.
>
> I learned from Sister Dipankara (a Burmese bhikkhuni from the Pau
> Auk monastery) that vitakka means turning the mind strongly to the
> object of concentration, and vicara is the holding of one's
> attention firmly on that object. Knowing a little French as I do,
> it appears that the translations Ivan gave us capture this well too.
>
> metta,
> John
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" <macdocaz1@...>
> wrote:
> > Hello Ivan, and thank-you for your very interesting contribution to
> > this dialog. It seems that firm-grip and sustained-grip might
> > indicate concentration. I do not know what else it would.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Jeff Brooks
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "societe_bouddhiste_gotama"
> > <societe_bouddhiste_gotama@...> wrote:
> > > In the recent French translation of the Visuddhimagga (which, in
> > > fact, is the best one, surpassing a lot the English translation
> of
> > > Nanamoli), Christian Maës transaltes vittakka and vicaara
> as "prise-
> > > ferme" (firm-grip) and "application-soutenue" (sustained-
> > > application) and thus does not make any reference to the
> thinking-
> > > process.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > with metta,
> > > Ivan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@... wrote:
> > > > A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka'
> > > and 'vicára'
> > > >
> > > > I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as
> a
> > > means of
> > > > providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative
> > > experiences. Through
> > > > this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like
> > > errors in
> > > > translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of
> > > those words that seem
> > > > to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a
> copy
> > > of a
> > > > definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from
> > > NYANATILOKA's, Manual of
> > > > Buddhist Terms and Doctrines.
> > > >
> > > > There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka'
> and 'vicára'
> > > as
> > > > "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> > > sustained thought')."
> > > > I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one
> arrive
> > > at jhana
> > > > through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective
> > > investigation through
> > > > meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and
> reasoning.
> > > >
> > > > I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali
> words
> > > > "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit,
> such
> > > as "applied and
> > > > sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana.
> On
> > > the Jhana Support
> > > > Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief
> > > that "intellectual
> > > > investigation," or "applied and sustained thought,"
> or "thought-
> > > conception and
> > > > discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than
> ignorance
> > > delusion and doubt
> > > > (dukkha).
> > > >
> > > > I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be
> > > better
> > > > translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns
> > > one's mind," or "applies
> > > > and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It
> is
> > > however
> > > > possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make
> the
> > > distinction
> > > > between concentration and discursive thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss
> this
> > > further,
> > > > then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list,
> or on
> > > the Jhana
> > > > Support Group.
> > > >
> > > > Kindest regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jeff Brooks
> > > >
> > > > Jhana Support Group
> > > > A support group for ecstatic contemplatives
> > > > website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
> > > > Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > From the Buddhist Dictionary
> > > > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
> > > > by NYANATILOKA
> > > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm
> > > >
> > > > vitakka-vicára
> > > >
> > > > 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> > > sustained
> > > > thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of
> the
> > > mind, the
> > > > so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are
> > > constituents of the 1st
> > > > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions.
> > > >
> > > > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a
> thought,
> > > giving it
> > > > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the
> consciousness
> > > to the
> > > > object.
> > > >
> > > > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and
> moving
> > > to and fro
> > > > of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of
> mind"
> > > (Vis.M. IV).
> > > >
> > > > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its
> > > resounding;
> > > > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis .
> IV.).