Hello Ivan, and thank-you for your very interesting contribution to
this dialog. It seems that firm-grip and sustained-grip might
indicate concentration. I do not know what else it would.

Best regards,

Jeff Brooks

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "societe_bouddhiste_gotama"
<societe_bouddhiste_gotama@...> wrote:

> In the recent French translation of the Visuddhimagga (which, in
> fact, is the best one, surpassing a lot the English translation of
> Nanamoli), Christian Maës transaltes vittakka and vicaara as "prise-
> ferme" (firm-grip) and "application-soutenue" (sustained-
> application) and thus does not make any reference to the thinking-
> process.
>
> Hope this helps,
> with metta,
> Ivan
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@... wrote:
> > A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka'
> and 'vicára'
> >
> > I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a
> means of
> > providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative
> experiences. Through
> > this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like
> errors in
> > translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of
> those words that seem
> > to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy
> of a
> > definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from
> NYANATILOKA's, Manual of
> > Buddhist Terms and Doctrines.
> >
> > There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára'
> as
> > "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> sustained thought')."
> > I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive
> at jhana
> > through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective
> investigation through
> > meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning.
> >
> > I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words
> > "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such
> as "applied and
> > sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On
> the Jhana Support
> > Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief
> that "intellectual
> > investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought-
> conception and
> > discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance
> delusion and doubt
> > (dukkha).
> >
> > I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be
> better
> > translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns
> one's mind," or "applies
> > and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is
> however
> > possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the
> distinction
> > between concentration and discursive thinking.
> >
> > Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this
> further,
> > then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on
> the Jhana
> > Support Group.
> >
> > Kindest regards,
> >
> > Jeff Brooks
> >
> > Jhana Support Group
> > A support group for ecstatic contemplatives
> > website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
> > Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > From the Buddhist Dictionary
> > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
> > by NYANATILOKA
> > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm
> >
> > vitakka-vicára
> >
> > 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
> sustained
> > thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the
> mind, the
> > so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are
> constituents of the 1st
> > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions.
> >
> > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought,
> giving it
> > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness
> to the
> > object.
> >
> > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving
> to and fro
> > of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind"
> (Vis.M. IV).
> >
> > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its
> resounding;
> > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.).