Heill Llama!

> Alaric Hall [ http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/2889/ ], if I remember

rightly, suggested that the language of R is closer to an oral style
of storytelling, and that H represents a compromise: an attempt to
tell the more elabourate story of the U version but in a simpler
way. But, even setting aside the learned introduction, I don't
think the others come close to R for rhythm and pace of the prose,
that plainness and ferocity. U is very cluttered by comparison and
so loses the fierce drive of R, while H is much abbreviated
(although it has more riddles and some entertaining asides lacking
from R); on the other hand, while H cuts down on detail, it shares a
lot of the complexities of U, such as the greater number of names,
so that in places it seems like a summary.

> > But then it was likely thought (not without reason) that

R made some omissions in the story (particularly in the intro, as it
lacked info on Arngrímr's family-background, omitted the story about
how the sword Tyrfingr was aquired from the dwarves, and atributed
the aquisition of the sword to Sigrlami instead of to Svafrlami, his
son in U and H, but not mentioned in R, etc.)

> It seems logical that the story of the dwarves making the sword

went missing from the precursor of R, since it's alluded to at the
beginning. But I wonder if the king's name might have been Sigrlami
after all in the earliest version, and then a father Svafrlami
invented for him in the ur-U, and the story of the sword transfered
to the father?

It does seem that R's original simply introduced Sigrlami & Tyrfingr
and then moved on to Arngrímr without discussing the dwarf-story.
One problem with including the dwarf story is the having to identify
the 'þriú níðingsverk' of the dwarves' curse later in the story. The
idea seems like a standard motive introduced for classicism's sake,
as the three works are hardly clear from the story, even if we allow
for the extra killings in U or H. R has Sigrlami in verse (opening
of Hervör's dialogue with her father) where U and H have Svafrlami.

> I suppose it's easier to rationalise the fact that Angantýr fights

Hjálmarr, if Hjörvarðr is Ingibjörg's suitor (maybe Angantýr does so
on his brother's behalf because he (Angantýr) knows himself to be the
better warrior?), than it would be to account for Angantýr going off
an marrying someone else on the way to the duel (if he was
Ingibjörg's suitor)!

Indeed ;) I go with Hiörvarðr, as far as the extant material goes.
But something must be missing here. Who is Fróðmarr? It seems that
he knew Bjartmarr and that they perhaps decided to conceal Hervör's
father's identity from her. Why? In the extant versions, Angantýr
appears as a lawful suitor to Bjartmarr and gets his bride. Why the
shame about this hero? The leading characters are all rogues. This
is a viking saga, despite the older setting and sources, and it was
likely told at some time by folk living somewhat outside of the law.
It would hardly surprise me, therefore, if Bjartmarr's daughter was
simply taken by Angantýr in the original version - hence the shame.
Angantýr would hardly have cared which, or even how many, women he
got involved with. Like the other leading characters, he follows the
law of the ur-woods. Do you want strong offspring likely to survive?
Don't ask, just take the children of the nobles and do your thing. I
think that Hervör's behavior after discovering that Angantýr is her
father shows this point best. Instead of being saddened or shamed by
her parentage, she takes only after her father. Even as a girl, she
hunts men instead of animals. Consider also the references in U and
H about bearing her out as an infant and letting her die, as she is
likely to have her father's nature.

> > - yet, either way, Hervör is Angantýr's daughter (also

attested in verses, as well as in R, U and H) and will avenge him as
his dutiful, warrior-daughter (the incident never occurs in any of
the extant versions, but she gets his sword in all 3!).

> Pity... It could have been the Old Norse "Kill Bill!" Well, if

this is anything to go by:
[http://www.heimskringla.no/faeroysk/folkekvad2/arngrimssynir.php%5d--
the Faroese ballad of Arngríms synir, in which (under the name
Hervík) she does go on to track down Arrow-Odd. I wonder how that
would have been dealt with in the saga. We know that she spent time
in raiding and warfare after she left Glæsisvellir, so anyone
reconstructing the story might put an encounter in there. But it's
tricky because the plot of Hervarar saga implies that Hervör
survives, while that of Örvar-Odds saga obviously depends on him
surviving and presumably outliving Hervör. But maybe there's a
precident there for a tantalisingly unresolved or ambiguous
encounter; compare Odd's eventual truce with his monstrous son.

Yes. As it is, Örvar-Odds Saga has been, essentially, mutilated. The
primal story is lost in the rewrites, which drag on and on, and Oddr
comes across as a Christian warrior knight (riddari) who is on a
mission to exterminate heathens. Now, this feature could hardly be
original, as Örvar-Oddr would have been living in Germanic Iron Age
Skandinavia, where there were no knights of this kind. Now, I can
live with a viking-age context, where stories about older heroes
like Heiðrekr are coloured by viking-age culture, as this was the
culture of the folk telling the story. Here the reader must accept
two points in time, two cultures - in this case (Gothic-Viking), it
works. But when a third culture, a third point in time, a third
context is introduced, such as the medieaval import-learning about
Troy, moral damnation of criticism of ancient heroes or gods, etc.,
then the story is, essentially, destroyed for me. As you mentioned,
the oral-element is evident in R, and this is it's grace. As long as
one can listen intently to the old viking-age story-teller telling
the tale, and this is picture and it's story teller is not suddenly
interupted by harrying lecturers from some monastary or wild gaps or
conradictions in the narrative, then the story works it's magic.

> > and am working on a clean, stripped down version (something like

an urtext-reconstruction with all verses intact and in very
conservative, old language from c.1100). The point is simply to tell
the story strait (without the wild interpolations and mix-and-match)
in bare, clear language.

> When I was trying to do exactly that, mix-and-match, one thought I

had wasto make the dwarves curse apply not to the king, but to his
descendents--compare the curse that the elf woman puts on King Helgi
in Hrólfs saga kraka. A bit arbitrary, admittedly; it would be a
blatant alteration of the text that survives (for aesthetic rather
than scholarly reasons!), but it seemed to me a rather efficient way
of combining the dwarves and their curse with the basic plot of R,
andavoids more radiacal changes or inconsistencies further down the
line.Then if you keep the incident from H where a bystander is
inadvertantly killed in place of "Gestumblindi" at the end of the
riddle match, that just leaves the bit with the fishermen as an
anomaly where the sword is drawn but doesn't kill anyone--unless the
pike is a person...

;) Stranger things are found in old stories. I'll post for you my
working draft for the Harvaða-episode, where Heiðrekr is killed by
his thralls and angantýr avenges him, likely later today. It's very
close to finished, but there are, of course, fine point in the text
where I am open to input and change, if it works better in terms of
language or story. It's based on R - R gets the benefit of the doubt
where texts collide, unless U (or H) has a better reading of a word
or portion of a sentence than R in cases where a common original is
evident. Even in this little section, I have some U-influence.

Regards,
Konrad

> > I think that it would be fabulous in Gothic, too ;)
>
> Oh yes, at the risk of straying off-topic here:
>
> Brikan skal ik airis, broþar,
> so blikahveito linda
> jah kalds gais
> qiman wiþra anþarana
> jah managai gumans
> in gras sigqan
> þau ik Humlugg
> halba letan
> aiþþau Tairwiggans
> in twa dailjan.
>
> ...
>
> Ik *sunþrana qam
> (du) qiþan spilla þo:
> gabrannida ist alla marka
> jah Mairqiwidaus haiþi,
> dribana alla gutþiuda
> gumane bloþa.
>