Sv: Re: Sv: Pronounciation of old norse (forgotten arcane dialects?)

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@... wrote:

>
> ...
>
> >
> > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and

he's

> > the boss...
>
> I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
> to show the kinship with the other Skandinaviska languages.
>

Hmmm, perhaps 'rð' should work in Jamtlandic spelling. Faroese 'ð' is
never pronunced (not in the original manner, anyway), and they use
it. Jamtlandic have the original pronunciation in some words
(alternatively, it has become silent like in most other Mainland
Norse dialects).

> >
> > >
> > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > >
> >
> > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
>
> I should look again, although right now it shall be a little
> hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and I) have

just moved into a smaller apartment and most of my library is packed
away.

Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like this. Search
for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably), www.google.com . I
get the following result:

'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
'Sjurður': 9 hits.

Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and I imagine that
the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).

>
> ...
>
> >
> > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number

of

> > internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and

on-

> > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> >
> > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
>
> I thought it was the work of someone else,
> someone who is also a member of the norse_course discussion group.
> But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> My notebook is packed away for the near future.
>

I have made such a resource, but it is not linked to since the
material is not supposed to be spread outside a very limited group (I
have copied material from Old Norse Course and rewritten it). I can't
give you the link here. The web pages will be terminated as soon as
my friend (and Jamtlandic language student) is finished with the
course. I am intending to write one more similar to the Dalecarlian
at UniLang Wiki, and less etymology (16h century conjugations and
declinations) embedded in the grammar (but more in the spelling).

> Perhaps Erek Gass can help us out.
>
> Have you seen this other look at Dalecarlian?
> ... http://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md2perpe/Dalska/ ...
> ( ... http://kb.vefur.is/gestabok.asp ... )

I know the first link since it was the first one about Dalecarlian I
encountered.´
The second link conains a poem in Jamtlandic with a very strange and
bad spelling, but nothing about Dalecarlian there. I can't change the
posting I made there on the Guestbook - yes, I am the guilty one :)

>
> Takk, Sjuler.
> Med vennligste hilsener,
> Paul.
>
> >
> >
>

Hälsningar,

/Sjuler - (aka Jens Persson)

>
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

sjuler@... writes:

>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> > > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the

dictionary is

> > called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
> > > as I would have expected.
> >
> > I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's really a

fan

> > of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central Swedish
> > dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
> > ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is quite similar to
> > the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in Jamtlandic (and most

other

> > non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
> >
> > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and

he's

> > the boss...
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > >
> >
> > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler'; that's why I use
> > this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending in the

definite

> > form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen' [wArr´Gen]
> > (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
> >
> >
> > > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian
> > language.
> > > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
> > >
> >
> > Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about the
> > orthography though, especially how to write nasal vowels. I

use 'ñ'

> > in the web pages at the moment.
> >
> >
> > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number

of

> > internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and

on-

> > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> >
> > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> >
> >
> > > It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
> > > Can Gutniska be recovered?
> >
> > Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything

from

> > them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I cannot

contact

> > them :(
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > Paul Hansen.
> > >
> >
> > Tack för visat intresse!
> > Hälsningar,
> > /Sjuler
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > sjuler@... writes:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province

myself

> > > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > > > I assume you are referring to).
> > > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my
> > ancestors
> > > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
> > > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far
> > away
> > > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this

in

> > mid
> > > > 14th century:
> > > >
> > > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson
> > logmader
> > > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna
> > Erlings-
> > > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha
> > þ/oe/nosto.
> > > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min
> > herra
> > > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin

nesta

> > ef-
> > > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min
> > herra
> > > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat
> > skada
> > > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till
> > stemfdir.
> > > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer

varo

> > til
> > > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok

stak

> > > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var

lengi

> > krankr
> > > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en
> > Olafuer
> > > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia.

baro

> > > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord

eftir

> > orde
> > > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at

þæir

> > varo
> > > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
> > > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
> > > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa
> > Olafuer
> > > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer
> > oftnemfdan
> > > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt

er

> > > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do

hann þar

> > > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at

so

> > var
> > > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er

so

> > > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho

Vestars

> > > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem

hann

> > > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer

fæk

> > af
> > > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin
> > vttan
> > > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss

ydars

> > min
> > > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr

eftir

> > > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri

vissu

> > ok
> > > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit

okkorr

> > > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem

fyr

> > > > segir."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century
> > Sjugurðr
> > > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'.

Note

> > the
> > > > rð > l development here.
> > > >
> > > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in

the

> > text
> > > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre

Västmannalagen)

> > from
> > > > early 14th century:
> > > >
> > > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe

mæþan þön

> > > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera
> > manna
> > > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf

manna

> > > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom

til

> > > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar

full

> > > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe

alldre

> > > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> > > >
> > > > One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the
> > samples
> > > > are too small to give real examples of differences. One is

that

> > Old
> > > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
> > > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still

today we

> > > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and

Swedish 'ty'.

> > > >
> > > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
> > > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged

between

> > > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect,

but

> > > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> > > >
> > > > /Sjuler
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...>

wrote:

> > > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political

implications

> > > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden

conquered

> > other
> > > > small domain around them and incorporated them, often

uneasily,

> > into
> > > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So

is

> > > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
> > > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how

that

> > > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the
> > medieval
> > > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering

the

> > > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Erek
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in

any way

> > > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern

Sweden

> > > > sound
> > > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here

is

> > that
> > > > a
> > > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
> > conservative
> > > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written
> > records.
> > > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age

Norse in

> > > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should

restrict

> > > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the
> > most
> > > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
> > > > markedly
> > > > > so."
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc

in an

> > > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch
> > accent,
> > > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it

may be

> > > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some

sound

> > > > > samples:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > > > >
> > > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > > > >
> > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug

Ásmundardóttir

> > > > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which
> > Icelandic
> > > > > has
> > > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is

the

> > þ-
> > > > > sound
> > > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all

you

> > > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak

accident! ;)

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old

norse

> > > > was,
> > > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their

surroundings

> > > > (that
> > > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are
> > minimal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
> > > > > (land/lamb)
> > > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However,

as you

> > > > > point
> > > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite

radically

> > so.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn

it

> > > > without
> > > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared

to a

> > > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand
> > years
> > > > > ago.
> > > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think what students need to understand about old
> > pronunciation
> > > > is
> > > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as

many

> > ways
> > > > > of
> > > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the
> > Gautlandic
> > > > of
> > > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my
> > opinion,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
> > > > > conservative
> > > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
> > > > > phonology
> > > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
> > > > > pronunciation,
> > > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West

Norse.

> > The
> > > > > way
> > > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is
> > that it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because
> > Faroese
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian,
> > matching
> > > > > on
> > > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good

idea of

> > > > how
> > > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
> > > > pronounced
> > > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most

complicated

> > > > > vowel-
> > > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of

any

> > > > > nordic
> > > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far

the

> > > > > easiest
> > > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for
> > comparison.
> > > > > This
> > > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
> > > > Fortunately,
> > > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often

markedly

> > so.
> > > > > Only
> > > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was
> > neglected,
> > > > > set
> > > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only

book

> > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century.

Fortunately, it

> > is
> > > > > old
> > > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden

age. I

> > > > > think
> > > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic

was

> > used
> > > > > as
> > > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when

the

> > > > > tongue
> > > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr hæil (short æ+i -
> > between
> > > > ei &
> > > > > ai ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Berglaug
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > >
> > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail

to:

> > > > >
> > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

_____________________________________________________________

> > > > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps - all at
> > > > > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > >
> > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > >
> > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > > to:
> > > >
> > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > to:
> >
> > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >