>>>> In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
>>>
>>> I thought it was "Sjúrður".
>>
>> I should look again, although right now it shall be a little
>> hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and I)
>
> Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like this.
> for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably),
> www.google.com . I get the following result:
>
> 'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
> 'Sjurður': 9 hits.
>
> Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and
> the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).

I found my copy of "An Introduction to Modern Faeroese"
by Lockwood and it is indeed spelled "Sjúrður".

>>>> Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large
>>>> internet references to someone's work on producing a
>>>> grammar and on-line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > >
> > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> >
> > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > someone who is also member of the norse_course discussion
> > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > My notebook is packed away for the near future.

I just remembered. I found a reference to Norrlandsko (Norrlandic) at this URL ...

http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/norrlandic/norrlandic.html

... and to Jamtlandic at this URL ...

http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/

Both are by the same author, I think.
Have you and Bo Oscarsson seen these?




In a message dated 3/17/2004 5:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjuler@... writes:

>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@... wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > >
> > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and
> he's
> > > the boss...
> >
> > I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
> > to show the kinship with the other Skandinaviska languages.
> >
>
> Hmmm, perhaps 'rð' should work in Jamtlandic spelling. Faroese 'ð' is
> never pronunced (not in the original manner, anyway), and they use
> it. Jamtlandic have the original pronunciation in some words
> (alternatively, it has become silent like in most other Mainland
> Norse dialects).
>
>
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > > >
> > >
> > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> >
> > I should look again, although right now it shall be a little
> > hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and I) have
> just moved into a smaller apartment and most of my library is packed
> away.
>
> Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like this. Search
> for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably), www.google.com . I
> get the following result:
>
> 'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
> 'Sjurður': 9 hits.
>
> Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and I imagine that
> the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).
>
>
> >
> > ...
> >
> > >
> > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number
> of
> > > internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and
> on-
> > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > >
> > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> >
> > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > someone who is also a member of the norse_course discussion group.
> > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
> >
>
> I have made such a resource, but it is not linked to since the
> material is not supposed to be spread outside a very limited group (I
> have copied material from Old Norse Course and rewritten it). I can't
> give you the link here. The web pages will be terminated as soon as
> my friend (and Jamtlandic language student) is finished with the
> course. I am intending to write one more similar to the Dalecarlian
> at UniLang Wiki, and less etymology (16h century conjugations and
> declinations) embedded in the grammar (but more in the spelling).
>
>
>
> > Perhaps Erek Gass can help us out.
> >
> > Have you seen this other look at Dalecarlian?
> > ... http://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md2perpe/Dalska/ ...
> > ( ... http://kb.vefur.is/gestabok.asp ... )
>
> I know the first link since it was the first one about Dalecarlian I
> encountered.´
> The second link conains a poem in Jamtlandic with a very strange and
> bad spelling, but nothing about Dalecarlian there. I can't change the
> posting I made there on the Guestbook - yes, I am the guilty one :)
>
>
> >
> > Takk, Sjuler.
> > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > Paul.
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> Hälsningar,
>
> /Sjuler - (aka Jens Persson)
>
>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sjuler@... writes:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> > > > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the
> dictionary is
> > > called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
> > > > as I would have expected.
> > >
> > > I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's really a
> fan
> > > of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central Swedish
> > > dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
> > > ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is quite similar to
> > > the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in Jamtlandic (and most
> other
> > > non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
> > >
> > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and
> he's
> > > the boss...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > > >
> > >
> > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > > 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler'; that's why I use
> > > this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending in the
> definite
> > > form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen' [wArr´Gen]
> > > (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian
> > > language.
> > > > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about the
> > > orthography though, especially how to write nasal vowels. I
> use 'ñ'
> > > in the web pages at the moment.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number
> of
> > > internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and
> on-
> > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > >
> > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> > >
> > >
> > > > It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
> > > > Can Gutniska be recovered?
> > >
> > > Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything
> from
> > > them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I cannot
> contact
> > > them :(
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > > Paul Hansen.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tack för visat intresse!
> > > Hälsningar,
> > > /Sjuler
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province
> myself
> > > > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > > > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > > > > I assume you are referring to).
> > > > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my
> > > ancestors
> > > > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
> > > > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far
> > > away
> > > > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this
> in
> > > mid
> > > > > 14th century:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > > > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson
> > > logmader
> > > > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna
> > > Erlings-
> > > > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha
> > > þ/oe/nosto.
> > > > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min
> > > herra
> > > > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin
> nesta
> > > ef-
> > > > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min
> > > herra
> > > > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat
> > > skada
> > > > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till
> > > stemfdir.
> > > > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer
> varo
> > > til
> > > > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok
> stak
> > > > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var
> lengi
> > > krankr
> > > > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en
> > > Olafuer
> > > > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia.
> baro
> > > > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord
> eftir
> > > orde
> > > > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at
> þæir
> > > varo
> > > > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
> > > > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
> > > > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa
> > > Olafuer
> > > > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer
> > > oftnemfdan
> > > > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt
> er
> > > > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do
> hann þar
> > > > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at
> so
> > > var
> > > > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er
> so
> > > > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho
> Vestars
> > > > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem
> hann
> > > > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer
> fæk
> > > af
> > > > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin
> > > vttan
> > > > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss
> ydars
> > > min
> > > > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr
> eftir
> > > > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri
> vissu
> > > ok
> > > > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit
> okkorr
> > > > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem
> fyr
> > > > > segir."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century
> > > Sjugurðr
> > > > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'.
> Note
> > > the
> > > > > rð > l development here.
> > > > >
> > > > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in
> the
> > > text
> > > > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre
> Västmannalagen)
> > > from
> > > > > early 14th century:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe
> mæþan þön
> > > > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera
> > > manna
> > > > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf
> manna
> > > > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom
> til
> > > > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar
> full
> > > > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe
> alldre
> > > > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> > > > >
> > > > > One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the
> > > samples
> > > > > are too small to give real examples of differences. One is
> that
> > > Old
> > > > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
> > > > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still
> today we
> > > > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and
> Swedish 'ty'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
> > > > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged
> between
> > > > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > > > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect,
> but
> > > > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political
> implications
> > > > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden
> conquered
> > > other
> > > > > small domain around them and incorporated them, often
> uneasily,
> > > into
> > > > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So
> is
> > > > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
> > > > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how
> that
> > > > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the
> > > medieval
> > > > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering
> the
> > > > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Erek
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in
> any way
> > > > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern
> Sweden
> > > > > sound
> > > > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here
> is
> > > that
> > > > > a
> > > > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
> > > conservative
> > > > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written
> > > records.
> > > > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age
> Norse in
> > > > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should
> restrict
> > > > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the
> > > most
> > > > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
> > > > > markedly
> > > > > > so."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc
> in an
> > > > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch
> > > accent,
> > > > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it
> may be
> > > > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some
> sound
> > > > > > samples:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > > > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug
> Ásmundardóttir
> > > > > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which
> > > Icelandic
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is
> the
> > > þ-
> > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all
> you
> > > > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak
> accident! ;)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old
> norse
> > > > > was,
> > > > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their
> surroundings
> > > > > (that
> > > > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are
> > > minimal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
> > > > > > (land/lamb)
> > > > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However,
> as you
> > > > > > point
> > > > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite
> radically
> > > so.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn
> it
> > > > > without
> > > > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared
> to a
> > > > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand
> > > years
> > > > > > ago.
> > > > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think what students need to understand about old
> > > pronunciation
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as
> many
> > > ways
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the
> > > Gautlandic
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my
> > > opinion,
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
> > > > > > conservative
> > > > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
> > > > > > phonology
> > > > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
> > > > > > pronunciation,
> > > > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West
> Norse.
> > > The
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is
> > > that it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because
> > > Faroese
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian,
> > > matching
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good
> idea of
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
> > > > > pronounced
> > > > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most
> complicated
> > > > > > vowel-
> > > > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of
> any
> > > > > > nordic
> > > > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far
> the
> > > > > > easiest
> > > > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for
> > > comparison.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
> > > > > Fortunately,
> > > > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often
> markedly
> > > so.
> > > > > > Only
> > > > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was
> > > neglected,
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only
> book
> > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century.
> Fortunately, it
> > > is
> > > > > > old
> > > > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden
> age. I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic
> was
> > > used
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when
> the
> > > > > > tongue
> > > > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr hæil (short æ+i -
> > > between
> > > > > ei &
> > > > > > ai ;)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Berglaug
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> to:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> _____________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps - all at
> > > > > > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > >
> > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > > > to:
> > > > >
> > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > to:
> > >
> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>