From: pdhanssen@...
Message: 4253
Date: 2004-03-17
>I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
> I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and he's
> the boss...
>I should look again, although right now it shall be a little
> >
> > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> >
>
> I thought it was "Sjúrður".
>I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number of
> internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and on-
> line textbook on the Jamtska language.
>
> Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
>In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjuler@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Takk, Sjuler.
> > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the dictionary is
> called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
> > as I would have expected.
>
> I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's really a fan
> of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central Swedish
> dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
> ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is quite similar to
> the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in Jamtlandic (and most other
> non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
>
> I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and he's
> the boss...
>
>
>
> >
> > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> >
>
> I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler'; that's why I use
> this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending in the definite
> form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen' [wArr´Gen]
> (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
>
>
> > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian
> language.
> > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
> >
>
> Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about the
> orthography though, especially how to write nasal vowels. I use 'ñ'
> in the web pages at the moment.
>
>
> > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number of
> internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and on-
> line textbook on the Jamtska language.
>
> Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
>
>
> > It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
> > Can Gutniska be recovered?
>
> Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything from
> them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I cannot contact
> them :(
>
>
>
> >
> > Takk, Sjuler.
> > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > Paul Hansen.
> >
>
> Tack för visat intresse!
> Hälsningar,
> /Sjuler
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sjuler@... writes:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province myself
> > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > > I assume you are referring to).
> > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my
> ancestors
> > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
> > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far
> away
> > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this in
> mid
> > > 14th century:
> > >
> > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson
> logmader
> > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna
> Erlings-
> > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha
> þ/oe/nosto.
> > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min
> herra
> > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin nesta
> ef-
> > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min
> herra
> > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat
> skada
> > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till
> stemfdir.
> > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer varo
> til
> > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok stak
> > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var lengi
> krankr
> > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en
> Olafuer
> > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia. baro
> > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord eftir
> orde
> > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at þæir
> varo
> > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
> > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
> > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa
> Olafuer
> > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer
> oftnemfdan
> > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt er
> > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do hann þar
> > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at so
> var
> > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er so
> > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho Vestars
> > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem hann
> > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer fæk
> af
> > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin
> vttan
> > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss ydars
> min
> > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr eftir
> > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri vissu
> ok
> > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit okkorr
> > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem fyr
> > > segir."
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century
> Sjugurðr
> > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'. Note
> the
> > > rð > l development here.
> > >
> > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in the
> text
> > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre Västmannalagen)
> from
> > > early 14th century:
> > >
> > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe mæþan þön
> > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera
> manna
> > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf manna
> > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom til
> > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar full
> > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe alldre
> > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> > >
> > > One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the
> samples
> > > are too small to give real examples of differences. One is that
> Old
> > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
> > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still today we
> > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and Swedish 'ty'.
> > >
> > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
> > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged between
> > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect, but
> > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
> > >
> > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> > >
> > > /Sjuler
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...> wrote:
> > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political implications
> > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden conquered
> other
> > > small domain around them and incorporated them, often uneasily,
> into
> > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So is
> > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
> > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how that
> > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the
> medieval
> > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering the
> > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
> > > >
> > > > Erek
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in any way
> > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern Sweden
> > > sound
> > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here is
> that
> > > a
> > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
> conservative
> > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written
> records.
> > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age Norse in
> > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should restrict
> > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the
> most
> > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
> > > markedly
> > > > so."
> > > >
> > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc in an
> > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch
> accent,
> > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it may be
> > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some sound
> > > > samples:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > > >
> > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > > >
> > > > /Sjuler
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug Ãsmundardóttir
> > > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which
> Icelandic
> > > > has
> > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is the
> þ-
> > > > sound
> > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > > >
> > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all you
> > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak accident! ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > > >
> > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > > >
> > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old norse
> > > was,
> > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their surroundings
> > > (that
> > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are
> minimal.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
> > > > (land/lamb)
> > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However, as you
> > > > point
> > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite radically
> so.
> > > > If
> > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn it
> > > without
> > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > > >
> > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared to a
> > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > > >
> > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand
> years
> > > > ago.
> > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think what students need to understand about old
> pronunciation
> > > is
> > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as many
> ways
> > > > of
> > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the
> Gautlandic
> > > of
> > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my
> opinion,
> > > > it
> > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
> > > > conservative
> > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
> > > > phonology
> > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
> > > > pronunciation,
> > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West Norse.
> The
> > > > way
> > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is
> that it
> > > > is
> > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because
> Faroese
> > > > and
> > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian,
> matching
> > > > on
> > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good idea of
> > > how
> > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
> > > pronounced
> > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most complicated
> > > > vowel-
> > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of any
> > > > nordic
> > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far the
> > > > easiest
> > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for
> comparison.
> > > > This
> > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
> > > Fortunately,
> > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often markedly
> so.
> > > > Only
> > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was
> neglected,
> > > > set
> > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only book
> in
> > > > the
> > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century. Fortunately, it
> is
> > > > old
> > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden age. I
> > > > think
> > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic was
> used
> > > > as
> > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when the
> > > > tongue
> > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr hæil (short æ+i -
> between
> > > ei &
> > > > ai ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > Konrad
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Konrad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Berglaug
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > >
> > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > >
> > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> > > >
> > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _____________________________________________________________
> > > > Free email, travel forums, user reviews, maps - all at
> > > > http://www.caribbean-on-line.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > to:
> > >
> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>