From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
Message: 69732
Date: 2012-06-02
>Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>>
>> - Zitierten Text ausblenden -
>> >
>> >> DGK:
>> >> What is the stem of Bart (Piem., prov. Novara)? Both d'Arbois (Les
>> >> prem.
>> >> inh. de l'Europe, 1894, 2:92) and Bottiglioni (Elem. prel. della top.
>> >> corsa,
>> >> 1929, 62) considered it connected with Bartasca (Cors., near Calvi),
>> >> providing evidence for a Ligurian stratum in Corsica.
>> >>
>> > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>> > Bartasca, river of Calvi and its valley, seems to imply a derivational
>> > stem *barto- or *barta- rather than *barti-, but of course that would
>> > be a minor difference (a matter of word-formation); Bart can in turn
>> > reflect *barto- (and indeed *barti-, albeit one would rather expect
>> > barc' ['barʧ] as most regular outcome), but not *barta-, which would
>> > remain unaltered.
>> >
>> > I still can't find Bart. I have both books, but they don't give any
>> > precise location and the old Province Novara (nowadays comprising both
>> > Novara and Verbania - Cusio - Ossola) was quite large in d'Arbois'
>> > times.
>> > Surely is Bart neither a Comune (= German Gemeinde) neither a
>> > Frazione (a relatively big village of lower grade).
>> > I don't want to give up, but the task is difficult
>>
>> Till now only Bart, Doubs
>>
>> DGK:
>> Another Bart is mentioned in the index to Hammond's France Road Atlas,
>> just east of the Swiss/French border in western Switzerland. (I cannot
>> find the place on the map itself inside the square referenced by the
>> index.) It is hard to believe the old Province Novara was this large.
>> I hope this is not merely an error on d'Arbois's part which Dottin and
>> Bottiglioni failed to catch. The latter was fairly fussy about the
>> Corsican place-names with which he dealt in his monograph.
>
> DGK again:
> I misread the map index. Bart is on the French side of the border in De'p.
> Doubs, doubtless identical with the one you found. This is still in the
> area where Ligurian place-names are to be expected. J. De'chelette's
> "Ligure Transalpine" includes Provence, Dauphine', and Savoie, not
> archaeologically Celticized until the La Te`ne period. I would extend
> "Greater Liguria" further north to include the watersheds of the Sao^ne,
> Ain, and Doubs, Alsace-Lorraine, and probably the whole Mosel-Rhein
> interfluve up to Koblenz.
>
> Dibio (Dijon) and Vesontio (Besanc,on) look to me like Ligurian formations,
> recalling Avenio (Avignon) and Arausio (Orange) in Provence. I can find no
> Celtic reflexes of *dHeigW- in Matasovic', which would be suitable for
> Dibio. On the other hand Matisco (Ma^con) is a Gaulish formation, 'la ville
> des Matisci, des bonnes gens' (P. Lebel, Ann. Acad. Ma^con 33:21, 1938),
> which itself recalls Gallo-Latin Taurisci 'Mountaineers', evidently built on
> Lig. *tauro- 'mountain', but with -isc- not -asc-, not a Lig. formation.
> And obviously Lug(u)dunum 'Lyon' is Gaulish. Not everything in "Greater
> Liguria" is necessarily Ligurian in origin, I readily admit.
>
> Borbetomagus (Worms-am-Rhein) has already been discussed; I am in favor of
> Lig. *Borm- here. Gallo-Latin <-pottus> '-potter' in inscriptions of Trier
> and westward could be regarded as a Lig. loan if Lig. underwent Kluge's
> assimilation. That is, alongside PIE *po'd-om 'earthen container' (OE
> <faet> 'cask, vat', etc.) I would posit *pod-no's 'maker of earthen
> containers, potter' > Lig. *pottos, through Treveran Gaulish to G-L *pottus.
> The term for 'pot' reflected in Romance, G-L *pottum (?) might have been
> extracted from *potta:ria nt. pl. 'potter's works, pottery'.
>Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>> Trond Engen <trond@...>:
>>
>> > Chez-le-Bart, a village in District de Boudry on the north shore of
>> > Lac de Neuchâtel. 'Le Bart' looks as it might be (or have been) the
>> > name of a small river running into the lake there.
>>
>> Or maybe not. I thought of 'chez' as Latin <casa>, but it's probably
>> just the familiar preposition meaning "in the home of", with 'le Bart'
>> being the surname of some old proprietor.
>>
>> > But I'll rush to say that I've never been anywhere near and know
>> > nothing about Swiss toponymics.
>>
>> I'll keep that caveat.
>>
>> --
>> Trond Engen
>>
>> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>>
>> Johann Ulrich Hubschmied, who among other places studied also
>> Estavayer-le-Lac (just in front of Gorgie, where Chez-le-Bart is
>> located), wrote the paper "Frz. Brancard, bayart, bard 'Bahre'", in
>> Vox romanica. Annales helvetici explorandis linguis romanicis
>> destinati (Zürich : Max Niehans Verlag, 1937), S. 24-33. At pp. 30-32
>> he dealt with Gallo-Romance continuations (Old French baart, French
>> bard), also in place-names, of Gaulish *ba:gareto- 'object with arms'
>> < *bhah2g'hu-s 'arm' and *ba:gareto. 'beech copse' < *bhah2g'o-s
>> 'beech'
>
> Well then, a beech-copse with arms would be a double proof of Gaulish
> origin. But seriously, would we expect the modern place-names as Bart
> rather than *Bard?
>
> DGK
>
>
>