Re: Bart (was: Ligurian)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> - Zitierten Text ausblenden -
> >
> >> DGK:
> >> What is the stem of Bart (Piem., prov. Novara)? Both d'Arbois (Les prem.
> >> inh. de l'Europe, 1894, 2:92) and Bottiglioni (Elem. prel. della top.
> >> corsa,
> >> 1929, 62) considered it connected with Bartasca (Cors., near Calvi),
> >> providing evidence for a Ligurian stratum in Corsica.
> >>
> > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> > Bartasca, river of Calvi and its valley, seems to imply a derivational
> > stem *barto- or *barta- rather than *barti-, but of course that would
> > be a minor difference (a matter of word-formation); Bart can in turn
> > reflect *barto- (and indeed *barti-, albeit one would rather expect
> > barc' ['barʧ] as most regular outcome), but not *barta-, which would
> > remain unaltered.
> >
> > I still can't find Bart. I have both books, but they don't give any
> > precise location and the old Province Novara (nowadays comprising both
> > Novara and Verbania - Cusio - Ossola) was quite large in d'Arbois'
> > times.
> > Surely is Bart neither a Comune (= German Gemeinde) neither a
> > Frazione (a relatively big village of lower grade).
> > I don't want to give up, but the task is difficult
>
> Till now only Bart, Doubs
>
> DGK:
> Another Bart is mentioned in the index to Hammond's France Road Atlas,
> just east of the Swiss/French border in western Switzerland. (I cannot
> find the place on the map itself inside the square referenced by the
> index.) It is hard to believe the old Province Novara was this large.
> I hope this is not merely an error on d'Arbois's part which Dottin and
> Bottiglioni failed to catch. The latter was fairly fussy about the
> Corsican place-names with which he dealt in his monograph.

DGK again:
I misread the map index. Bart is on the French side of the border in De'p. Doubs, doubtless identical with the one you found. This is still in the area where Ligurian place-names are to be expected. J. De'chelette's "Ligure Transalpine" includes Provence, Dauphine', and Savoie, not archaeologically Celticized until the La Te`ne period. I would extend "Greater Liguria" further north to include the watersheds of the Sao^ne, Ain, and Doubs, Alsace-Lorraine, and probably the whole Mosel-Rhein interfluve up to Koblenz.

Dibio (Dijon) and Vesontio (Besanc,on) look to me like Ligurian formations, recalling Avenio (Avignon) and Arausio (Orange) in Provence. I can find no Celtic reflexes of *dHeigW- in Matasovic', which would be suitable for Dibio. On the other hand Matisco (Ma^con) is a Gaulish formation, 'la ville des Matisci, des bonnes gens' (P. Lebel, Ann. Acad. Ma^con 33:21, 1938), which itself recalls Gallo-Latin Taurisci 'Mountaineers', evidently built on Lig. *tauro- 'mountain', but with -isc- not -asc-, not a Lig. formation. And obviously Lug(u)dunum 'Lyon' is Gaulish. Not everything in "Greater Liguria" is necessarily Ligurian in origin, I readily admit.

Borbetomagus (Worms-am-Rhein) has already been discussed; I am in favor of Lig. *Borm- here. Gallo-Latin <-pottus> '-potter' in inscriptions of Trier and westward could be regarded as a Lig. loan if Lig. underwent Kluge's assimilation. That is, alongside PIE *po'd-om 'earthen container' (OE <faet> 'cask, vat', etc.) I would posit *pod-no's 'maker of earthen containers, potter' > Lig. *pottos, through Treveran Gaulish to G-L *pottus. The term for 'pot' reflected in Romance, G-L *pottum (?) might have been extracted from *potta:ria nt. pl. 'potter's works, pottery'.

> Trond Engen <trond@...>:
>
> > Chez-le-Bart, a village in District de Boudry on the north shore of
> > Lac de Neuchâtel. 'Le Bart' looks as it might be (or have been) the
> > name of a small river running into the lake there.
>
> Or maybe not. I thought of 'chez' as Latin <casa>, but it's probably
> just the familiar preposition meaning "in the home of", with 'le Bart'
> being the surname of some old proprietor.
>
> > But I'll rush to say that I've never been anywhere near and know
> > nothing about Swiss toponymics.
>
> I'll keep that caveat.
>
> --
> Trond Engen
>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>
> Johann Ulrich Hubschmied, who among other places studied also
> Estavayer-le-Lac (just in front of Gorgie, where Chez-le-Bart is
> located), wrote the paper "Frz. Brancard, bayart, bard 'Bahre'", in
> Vox romanica. Annales helvetici explorandis linguis romanicis
> destinati (Zürich : Max Niehans Verlag, 1937), S. 24-33. At pp. 30-32
> he dealt with Gallo-Romance continuations (Old French baart, French
> bard), also in place-names, of Gaulish *ba:gareto- 'object with arms'
> < *bhah2g'hu-s 'arm' and *ba:gareto. 'beech copse' < *bhah2g'o-s
> 'beech'

Well then, a beech-copse with arms would be a double proof of Gaulish origin. But seriously, would we expect the modern place-names as Bart rather than *Bard?

DGK