From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
Message: 69666
Date: 2012-05-22
> 2012/5/16, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
>>> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
>>> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:Till now only Bart, Doubs
>>> >>>
>>> >> [top-posting corrected]
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> But nevertheless: bairt 'girl' : Gothic barn 'child' (I was
>>> >> >>> about
>>> >> >>> to write 'kind'!...), once attested (+ bairte), we're linguists,
>>> >> >>> not
>>> >> >>> lawyers ("testis unus testis nullus"), so why doubtful? The
>>> >> >>> Auraicept
>>> >> >>> na n-éces are after all a trustworthy source. Whence otherwise
>>> >> >>> Continental Celtic *Bartia:kon > Barzâgh / Barzago (Lecch /
>>> >> >>> Lecco
>>> >> >>> [Lombardy])?
>>>
>>> >> >> [DGK:]
>>> >> >> Whence otherwise? From Ligurian, of course, with a secondary
>>> >> >> ending
>>> >> >> from
>>> >> >> Gaulish superstrate. To wit, PIE *bHr.ti'- 'act of bearing' (Skt.
>>> >> >> <bhr.ti's.>, Av. <-b@...@tis^>, Lat. <fors> 'luck, chance', OE
>>> >> >> <ge-byrd>
>>> >> >> 'birth', etc.) regularly yields Lig. *bartis 'inflow, inlet, site
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> importation' vel sim., cognate with Celt. *britis 'carrying,
>>> >> >> judgment'
>>> >> >> (OIr
>>> >> >> <brith>, etc.). Retained as a local term by the Gaulish invaders,
>>> >> >> *bartis
>>> >> >> becomes the base of *Bartia:kon 'town near the inlet' vel sim.
>>> >> >> Much
>>> >> >> better
>>> >> >> than trying to explain it as pure Celtic.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> DGK
>>> >
>>> > [Bh.:]
>>> >> And of course Your theory predicts that the Gaulish invaders have
>>> >> been so careful to retain from Ligurian just those terms whose /ar/
>>> >> was from PIE syllabic */r/ before stop (while all other place-names
>>> >> [200] are plainly Celtic) and to let them arrive to Ireland just in
>>> >> time for a registration in the Auraicept na n-�ces...
>>>
>>> > [DGK:]
>>> > No, my theory explains *bartis as a toponomastic loanword from
>>> > Ligurian
>>> > to
>>> > Celtic, with no phonological criteria applied by the borrowers. Its
>>> > retention is, pardon the root, fortuitous. Kilday finally gets some
>>> > good
>>> > luck!
>>> >
>>>
>>> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>>> So, where do Yo suggest Ir. bairt comes from? To my limited
>>> knowledge, there's no place-name whose stem is simple *Barti-s
>
>> DGK:
>> What is the stem of Bart (Piem., prov. Novara)? Both d'Arbois (Les prem.
>> inh. de l'Europe, 1894, 2:92) and Bottiglioni (Elem. prel. della top.
>> corsa,
>> 1929, 62) considered it connected with Bartasca (Cors., near Calvi),
>> providing evidence for a Ligurian stratum in Corsica.
>>
>>
>> DGK
>>
>>
>>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> Bartasca, river of Calvi and its valley, seems to imply a derivational
> stem *barto- or *barta- rather than *barti-, but of course that would
> be a minor difference (a matter of word-formation); Bart can in turn
> reflect *barto- (and indeed *barti-, albeit one would rather expect
> barc' ['barʧ] as most regular outcome), but not *barta-, which would
> remain unaltered.
>
> I still can't find Bart. I have both books, but they don't give any
> precise location and the old Province Novara (nowadays comprising both
> Novara and Verbania - Cusio - Ossola) was quite large in d'Arbois'
> times.
> Surely is Bart neither a Comune (= German Gemeinde) neither a
> Frazione (a relatively big village of lower grade).
> I don't want to give up, but the task is difficult
> Chez-le-Bart, a village in District de Boudry on the north shore ofOr maybe not. I thought of 'chez' as Latin <casa>, but it's probably
> Lac de Neuchâtel. 'Le Bart' looks as it might be (or have been) the
> name of a small river running into the lake there.
> But I'll rush to say that I've never been anywhere near and knowI'll keep that caveat.
> nothing about Swiss toponymics.