--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
><snip>
> Bundle (sort of).
So was the idea of 'ten' 'a bundle of fingers', or was a 'hand' 'a bundle of fingers', or 'the bundled fingers (fist)', or something else?
>
> And the really interesting bundles:
> *k^mtóm and de-k^mto- (too large in Pokorny for a quote).
Where are these in Pokorny? I looked for *k^em- and *k^m(t)- but could not find them. Under *de-k^mto- I only found the following note:
"Root / lemma: dek̂m̥, dek̂m̥-t, dek̂u- (*du̯e-k̂m̥-t): `ten' is an extended Root / lemma: du̯ō(u) (*du̯ei-): `two'. The subsequent roots *u̯ī-k̂m̥t-ī : `twenty' and k̂m̥tóm `hundred' are mutated forms of the root *du̯e-k̂m̥-t : `ten'. They both reflect the common illyr.- balt d- > zero phonetic mutation."
Seems Pokorny favoured the idea of "ten" being 'two "k^mts"', though there's no suggestion of a connection with Germanic "hand".
Note regarding 'frahinþan' and 'hand' being related to words meaning "prick, goad, spear" in other languages:
"Root / lemma: k̂ent-
Meaning: to stick
German meaning: `stechen'
Material: Gr. κεντέω (seit dem 5. Jhd.; older:) *κέντω, Aor. κένσαι `prick', κέντρον `sting, prick' (forms-ro-) ` pricking ', κέντωρ `Anstachler' (to κέντρον shaped after sonstigen -τωρ besides -τρο-), κεστός `gestickt' (*κεντ-τός), κέστρον `spitzes iron', κέστρος `Pfeil', κέστρᾱ f. `Spitzhammer', κοντός ` shaft, pole, Schifferstange' (out of it lat. contus ds., whereof percontārī actually `with the Schifferstange sondieren', hence `untersuchen, forschen');
air. cinteir (lat. Lw.) `calcar', cymr. cethr `nail', corn. kenter ds., bret. kentr `Sporn' (borrowing aller from lat. centrum `κέντρον', Pedersen KG. I 198, is barely erweislich, but probably; Vendryes Mél. Saussure 319 läßt only das ir. word from dem Brit. derive);
ahd. hantag `sharp'; got. handugs `wise', anord. hannarr `kunstfertig, smart' from *hanÞara-, actually `sharp witted, shrewd'?;
lett. sīts (= lit. *iñtas) `Jagdspieß'. "
So Gmc had words (hantag, handugs, hannarr) directly related to this 'sharp, spear, prick, goad' root but which had no semantic connection to 'hand'. To me this suggests that 'hand' comes from an entirely separate root (perhaps *k^emt- as opposed to *k^ent-).
>
> And the answer to Andrew's question about the "ten" word:
>
> Russian (and other Slavic languages, AFAIK) has
> dvenadtsat', trinadtsat' etc lit.
> "two on ten", "three on ten" etc meaning
> "twelve", "thirteen" etc.
>
> Suppose PIE had 'dwó do komt', 'trí do komt' vel sim. (cf. the Lat. -gint-, Gk. -kont- for decades), then by false division *dé-komt- "ten". Voilà!
>
Great, but did *komt- mean "bundle of fingers" or "bundle of hands" or something else? Why not just "hand", and then go along with Pokorny in making *dek^mt- a reduced form of *dwe/dwo k^mt (or *k^omt)? Maybe Gmc 'hand' was originally a consonant stem, and then became an u-stem because of the accusative endings -um and -uns, like Gothic <fo:tus>?
Andrew