Re: Mid-first century BCE Yazigian prerequisites

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > GK: Here is another source about burial practices in the area of and near the amber road in the 1rst-4th cs. CE:
> >

http://club- kaup.narod. ru/kaup_r_ kylakov_hist_ of_prussia_ 1283_4.html

> >
>
> >
> > Neither of them is even considering Sarmatians as an option, even
> > though they lived next door and had been inhumating for centuries,

****GK: There are at least 4 different kinds of "Sarmatian" inhumations in the relevant time period. There are also Late Scythian and Greek inhumations. All these differ significantly from one another. Late Celtic inhumations and Germanic ones also have their specificities. Professional archaeologists are well aware of these differences. You on the other hand don't seem to understand this simple fact and naively believe that the magic word "inhumation" is all that you require to back up your fantasies. Stay in grade 1 if you wish Torsten. It obviously makes you happy (:=)))*****

> > and native sources point out Sarmatians as immigrating into the
> > area.
> >
> > GK: Sarmatian specificities are apparently missing. Cf. article
> > mentioned supra.
> >
>
> I think it's your turn to translate the relevant passages. The ball is in your court.
>
> Torsten
>
> GK: My dear Torsten, you're the one who's attempting to find
> evidence for Snorri's fantasized notion of the "Asgard" origins of
> Odin Germania. You're disappointed at the fact that your German
> language sources don't seem to share your prejudices?

I expected the German sources not to mention it as a possibility and my hunch proved true. I pointed out they didn't share yours. They didn't dismiss the idea of a Sarmatian origin, the didn't mention it at all.

****GK: Why should they? The structure and inventory of Germanic inhumations is so different that there is no need to point out the obvious.****

> That they don't mention anything at all which could be used as
> "proof" of this nonsense? I don't have to prove anything.

Oh, that's your position now.

****GK It has always been my position that someone who advances a notion in conflict with the evidence must prove it. There is no evidence for a Sarmatian presence in Germania in that time frame.****

> All I need to do is to point you towards relevant sources. If you
> want to waste your time be my guest... I have other projects and my
> time is at a premium. I simply can't waste it in this way.

Bla-bla-bla. .. no, you can't let this one go.

****GK: What's to let go? Your "bla bla" about Sarmatian inhumations in Germania doesn't even rate the status of a hypothesis. It is pure idiocy.****

> I can help you a little bit, but you'll have to find someone else
> to translate more than a few lines of these texts for you. Here's
> the best I can do:

You have no manners.

****GK: "I grieve over this long winter evenings" (Philip Marlowe in "The Big Sleep")

> Kulakov is interested in what you call "horsey stuff" in the grave
> inventories of the Barbaricum of northern Europe. He mentions a
> source you should consult: the 1994 work by Suzanna Wilbers-Rost
> connected with "the genesis, development, and spread of equine
> headgear with straps in the form of bronze chainlets". She lists
> and catalogues 140 such grave and cenotaph finds from Southern
> Scandinavia to Lithuania in the 1rst-4th c.CE.

That sounds interesting. Does she have a discussion of the corresponding Sarmatian equine headgear?

****GK: Read her and find out. The point is that it is the Celtic forms which appear in Germanic graves. ****

> In phase B1/B2 there are three concentrations of such popular
> equine headgears in the north European Barbaricum: (1) between Oder
> and Vistula (2) in southeastern Baltia esp. Sambia (3) in the
> western part of the Baltic shore area (esp. Mecklenburg and the
> island of Fiune(?sp). "The earliest finds are in the area of the
> Roman limes on the Danube, in the area of intense Roman-Celtic
> contacts in the first c. CE." Then, (p. 74): "The Celtic material
> of the period 100 BCE-100 CE allows us to establish the specific
> Celtic origin of such equine headgears with bronze chainlets".
> Then: "in the first c. CE this equipment was adopted by the Roman
> cavalry." "We must not forget that in the time frame from the
> epoch of Gaius Marius (105 BCE) through the time of Trajanus'
> Dacian wars (101-107 CE) Rome's auxiliary cavalry was recruited
> from amongst "barbarians" -- Celts and Germanics."

The Yasyges were living on the Pannonian plain from 7 BCE.

****GK: Too early for a massive presence. They were certainly roaming around the Lower Danube since the late 2nd c. BCE. They didn't settle en masse in Hungary until well into the 1rst c. CE.*****

They were never recruited?

****GK: I don't know of any significant recruiting at that time. A little later I think.****

> There are masses
> of references in Kulakov to archaeological literature on the
> presence of such items in the graves of auxiliary Quadi for
> instance. They spread along the Amber route from ca. 51-63 CE.===
> There are further mass references to archaeological literature
> indicating the wave of influence from the south along the amber
> route.

Well, that's what I've been saying all the time.

****GK: The influence was Roman and Celtic, not Sarmatian. That's the evidence in all the literature. AFAIK your idiosyncratic views are not shared by any reputable historians or archaeologists, East or West.****

> Influence which spread throughout the northern babaricum as
> contingents from many more distant Germanic areas participated in
> the "auxiliary" movement in the 1rst and 2nd c. CE. They took their
> acquisitions home and they wound up in their graves. Kulakov then
> mentions two other sources (both by H. Steuer, both published in
> 1998) which deal with the Lubsow gravefinds. The "princely" burials
> are indicative of the high social standing of the defunct in that
> they not only contain the equine headgear specifics Wilber-Rost
> catalogued, but entire horse burials. This is considered a Germanic
> innovation for that time (only applicable to leaders),

The Sarmatians had been doing it all the time.

****GK: Nope. It varied.****

> and later on will influence the burial practices of the pagan
> Balts. Interestingly, Kulikov notes that these specific headgears
> are not found in the Sarmatian areas of Hungary (they had their own
> types) except on the Sarmat-Quadi borderland ca. 200 CE.

That's something I need to check on.