Re: The progressive emergence of "Germanic"

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > > > In any case there are other things which need
> to be settled
> > > > about these helmets, such as the dates of the
> inscriptions above
> > > > all.
> > >
> > > The alphabet (north Etruscan) is a preform in
> one proposed
> > > development succession of the Runic alphabet. My
> scenario won't
> > > have a problem there.
> >
> > GK: I'm sure it wouldn't. But that isn't
> really
> > the point. None of us AFAIK are experts at script
> > decipherment. I've not read all the Negau
> literature
> > in extenso (just some of it). But I think I am
> > familiar with all expert dating hypotheses. None
> is as
> > "recent" as yours.
>
> Some joker wrote 50 BC for the date of burial at the
> Wikipedia Negau
> helmet website.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet
> Maybe you should correct it, it's open for everyone?
> Since you read so
> much of the Negau helmet literature, I don't think
> it is necessary
> that I also read Gustav Must's book cited at the
> bottom of the page.

****GK: I'm talking about the date of the
inscriptions, not about the date of the burials. Keep
that in mind. One theory is that the inscriptions were
c. 100 BCE and the burial 50 years later. I know of no
theory which suggests that the inscriptions were
contemporaneous with Caesar's Ariovistus.****

>
>
> > The youngest date proposed so far is "ca. two
> centuries before
> > Tacitus".
>
> He wrote 'Germania' in 98 CE, that means ca. 102 BCE
> then.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus
> That is not strictly correct; see above.

****GK: See above for the distinction
inscriptions/burial.****

>
>
> > The one I prefer as of right now (until I see it
> refuted) is
> > Hubert's: ca.4th c. BCE ("during the great
> invasions").
>
> Yes, but that theory only has 0.00001% chance of
> being correct.
> However, I am feeling magnanimous today and won't
> stop you from
> believing that.

****GK: You're confusing Hubert's solid analysis with
Torstenian fantasies (:=))).*****

>
>
> > If your linguistic reconstruction of Harigast as
> Ariovistus is
> > correct (and I'm not saying it is),
>
> Please do. It means a lot to me.
>
>
> > then this was a much earlier "Ariovistus", not the
> Suebian warlord
> > and king of Caesar's time.
>
> So the one Caesar mentions should properly be called
> Ariovistus II?
>
>
> > > > As to the burial, your time frame has been
> deemed possible by
> > > > some (though perhaps they associated this with
> the Dacian
> > > > invasion).
>
> My 'time frame has been deemed possible by some',
> but 'the youngest
> date proposed so far is "ca. two centuries before
> Tacitus"'?

****GK: See above.****

>
>
> > > In that scenario, why would a helmet with a
> Germanic inscription
> > > be buried in the border lands between Noricum
> and Pannonia?
> >
> > GK: For the same reason anything valuable
> would
> > be. To avoid robbery by the incoming military.
>
> I was more like wondering what some Germanic speaker
> was doing in
> those parts?
>
>
> > You're worried about the spot? We know too little
> about
> > events there to say anything one way or the other.
>
> Erh, what? Really?
>
>
> > Note that some helmets had Celtic inscriptions.
> Hubert
> > points out, rather convincingly, that all the
> > inventory of the Negau burial(except the
> inscriptions
> > on the helmets)is Pannonian or Illyrian. He
> supposes
> > that when the Celts conquered these regions
> (Taurisci
> > or Scordisci or others) they adoptedmuch of the
> > material culture of the locals. He also supposes,
> very
> > plausibly, that they were accompanied by Germanic
> > auxiliaries, whence the Harigast inscription on a
> > Pannonian helmet.****
>
> M. Hubert seems to say a lot, more in one direction
> than in the other.
> Has he also identified the recruitment agency
> which procured those
> Germani?

****GK: Hubert is a very respected authority on
matters Celtic (even if occasionally superseded by
subsequent research). One of his major points is that
during the LaTene period's earlier phases, the Celts
were tremendously influential on the development of
early Germanic culture, incl. political organization.
He thinks there was frequent collaboration between
Celts and Germanics in military expeditions, with the
former in a leading position. Why don't you read his
books? They're available on-line.****

>
>
> > > > BTW Negau was not in Noricum but in Pannonia.
> > >
> > > http://www.jstor.org/pss/410026
> > > 'Helmet B of Negau was found buried with
> twenty-five other bronze
> > > helmets in the year 1811 in Zenjak, Styria, not
> far from Negau, in
> > > the ancient border zone of Noricum and Pannonia
> > > Superior.
> >
> > GK: It was on the Pannonian side of the
> border.
>
> But maybe they buried the helmets in a dark and
> moonless night and
> they got lost in the dark and accidentally crossed
> the border without
> the border guards noticing them?

****GK: Well if you get bored with straight research,
you can always write a novel, and maybe eventually
turn it into a film. I promise to read and/or
watch.****

>
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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