Re: The progressive emergence of "Germanic"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > > Surely you're not serious about "Harigast" being Ariovistus?
> >
> > As far as I'm concerned, it's a hypothesis like any other
> > hypothesis.
>
> ****GK: In the current state of our knowledge, it's
> much more than extremely far-fetched.

That says a lot.

> One of your favoured 0.00001% possibilities.

Haven't you left out a zero?

> But since you're incorrigible (:=)), I can only let you bask in it
> even as I disagree.*****

Thank you George, I appreciate it. I think you set a shining example
of scientific tolerance for others to follow. Maybe you'll get a prize
one day?

> > > In any case there are other things which need to be settled
> > > about these helmets, such as the dates of the inscriptions above
> > > all.
> >
> > The alphabet (north Etruscan) is a preform in one proposed
> > development succession of the Runic alphabet. My scenario won't
> > have a problem there.
>
> ****GK: I'm sure it wouldn't. But that isn't really
> the point. None of us AFAIK are experts at script
> decipherment. I've not read all the Negau literature
> in extenso (just some of it). But I think I am
> familiar with all expert dating hypotheses. None is as
> "recent" as yours.

Some joker wrote 50 BC for the date of burial at the Wikipedia Negau
helmet website.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet
Maybe you should correct it, it's open for everyone? Since you read so
much of the Negau helmet literature, I don't think it is necessary
that I also read Gustav Must's book cited at the bottom of the page.

> The youngest date proposed so far is "ca. two centuries before
> Tacitus".

He wrote 'Germania' in 98 CE, that means ca. 102 BCE then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus
That is not strictly correct; see above.

> The one I prefer as of right now (until I see it refuted) is
> Hubert's: ca.4th c. BCE ("during the great invasions").

Yes, but that theory only has 0.00001% chance of being correct.
However, I am feeling magnanimous today and won't stop you from
believing that.

> If your linguistic reconstruction of Harigast as Ariovistus is
> correct (and I'm not saying it is),

Please do. It means a lot to me.

> then this was a much earlier "Ariovistus", not the Suebian warlord
> and king of Caesar's time.****

So the one Caesar mentions should properly be called Ariovistus II?

> > > As to the burial, your time frame has been deemed possible by
> > > some (though perhaps they associated this with the Dacian
> > > invasion).

My 'time frame has been deemed possible by some', but 'the youngest
date proposed so far is "ca. two centuries before Tacitus"'?

> > In that scenario, why would a helmet with a Germanic inscription
> > be buried in the border lands between Noricum and Pannonia?
>
> ****GK: For the same reason anything valuable would
> be. To avoid robbery by the incoming military.

I was more like wondering what some Germanic speaker was doing in
those parts?

> You're worried about the spot? We know too little about
> events there to say anything one way or the other.

Erh, what? Really?

> Note that some helmets had Celtic inscriptions. Hubert
> points out, rather convincingly, that all the
> inventory of the Negau burial(except the inscriptions
> on the helmets)is Pannonian or Illyrian. He supposes
> that when the Celts conquered these regions (Taurisci
> or Scordisci or others) they adoptedmuch of the
> material culture of the locals. He also supposes, very
> plausibly, that they were accompanied by Germanic
> auxiliaries, whence the Harigast inscription on a
> Pannonian helmet.****

M. Hubert seems to say a lot, more in one direction than in the other.
Has he also identified the recruitment agency which procured those
Germani?

> > > BTW Negau was not in Noricum but in Pannonia.
> >
> > http://www.jstor.org/pss/410026
> > 'Helmet B of Negau was found buried with twenty-five other bronze
> > helmets in the year 1811 in Zenjak, Styria, not far from Negau, in
> > the ancient border zone of Noricum and Pannonia
> > Superior.
>
> ****GK: It was on the Pannonian side of the border.****

But maybe they buried the helmets in a dark and moonless night and
they got lost in the dark and accidentally crossed the border without
the border guards noticing them?



Torsten