Re: Post-Postscript on Przeworsk

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > In case there is desire to continue flogging this.
> >
> > As mentioned, the current standard opus on the P.
> > culture is Dombrowska's 1988 publication.
> Subsequent
> > studies have merely confirmed and polished (no
> pun)
> > her findings.
> > There is a brief summary in M.B.Shchukin's "Na
> rubezhe
> > er", pp. 101-107(Saint Petersburg 1994), and a
> lucid
> > little paragraph in his important study (in
> Russian)
> > "The birth of the Slavs" (available on-line)[see
> > http://www.krotov.info/history/09/schukin.html%5d.
> Here
> > is an ad hoc translation of the latter:
> >
> > "There was no direct sequence of Przeworsk from
> the
> > Pomeranian culture... The ceramic of the
> Pomeranian
> > culture occasionally appears once more in
> Przeworsk
> > complexes, but not in the early phase of
> [Przeworsk]
> > development, only subsequently, after one or two
> > generations...The process of the emergence of the
> new
> > Przeworsk community on the territory of today's
> Poland
> > was complex. It included, beside the weak
> > manifestation of a Pomeranian continuity, an
> active
> > influx of carriers of the Yastorf culture
> > (particularly its Gubin group from the Oder-Neiss
> > interriver region), of Celts from Silesia, and,
> > perhaps, of migrants from Bornholm and other
> islands
> > of the Baltic." Shchukin makes an interesting
> point
> > about this Yastorf "Gubin group". It was formed as
> a
> > result of the fusion (his term) of an earlier
> Yastorf
> > incursion which assimilated the local Pomeranian
> > culture carriers. The "complexity" of Przeworsk
> was
> > also due to the Yastorf element being both of the
> > "Gubin" type (mostly) and of more northwesterly
> > Yastorf elements. The presence of both Yastorf as
> such
> > and "Gubin Yastorf" is mentioned by Shchukin in
> > connection with the creation of the Zarubyntsi and
> > Poeneshti-Lukashovka cultures. Gubin Yastorf
> emerged
> > in the 4th c. BCE. Przeworsk, Zarubyntsi,
> > P.-Lukashovka, Oksywie all arose in the course of
> the
> > 3rd c. BCE All of them "Latenized" cultures.
>
> If you had taken the time to search the archives,
> you would have found
> with 'Gubin':
>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50599

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50154

> but in the reference
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Poland_(until_966)

> the text I quote has been excised, with no comment
> on the discussion page.
>
> In other words, that fatal variable in archaeology,
> direction, has not
> been settled. Some claim Gubin/Wetterau was settled
> from Przeworsk,
> not the other way around. Which makes one wonder,
> what evidence does
> Shchukin have of the direction of the
> Przeworsk/Jastorf influence?
>
>
>
> Torsten

****GK: There is NO Przeworsk culture before the
arrival of the Jastorf+"Gubin Jastorf"+Silesian
Celts+Bornholmers+
into the area of early "Przeworsk". That area was
previously occupied by carriers of the Pomeranian
culture. Most were either killed or pushed out, and
the "weak" remnant absorbed. After some 50-60 years,
when early Przeworsk was in place, some "Pomeranians"
came back, and were also absorbed. So the direction,
according to Dombrowska (whom Shchukin is reporting)
is clearly west->east. It becomes east->west only some
two centuries later,in the time of Ariovistus. I don't
know what you mean by "Some claim Gubin/Wetterau was
settled

> from Przeworsk"... If there is no X (Przeworsk)

prior to the advent of Y(Gubin Yastorf), then Y
clearly is not the result of X.****

>
>
>
>

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