Re: Uralic Continuity Theory ; Paleo-Germanic lexical borrowings in

I understood Arnaud as arguing that hartia came from
the same root as *s-kul-t-er. Would that work?

I'm intrigued by English hop (the plant). Where is it
from? Was there a deformation of *humala > **hupala?

--- jouppe <jouppe@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud"
> <fournet.arnaud@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If 'hartia-' is from Germ. *hart-, what made the
> Finns
> > > suddenly change their mind about their
> supposedly ancient Germ.
> *x- ->
> > > Finn. *k- ? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
> > > Torsten
> > >
> > > ===========
> > >
> > > Finnish hartia "shoulder"
> > > is really strange.
> > >
> > > It looks like an odd deformation
> > > of the root of *s-kul-t-er
> > > with *kul-t > *hart-
> > >
> > > I don't know if there are
> > > other cases when Finnish has
> > > -r- when -l- is expected.
> > >
> > > Arnaud
> > >
> > According to DEO *harþi-, pl. *harþiðz has plenty
> of family within
> > NWGermanic, but is otherwise 'of disputed origin'.
> Why it's
> classified
> > as a loan from Germanic to Finn. is a mystery to
> me; the two other
> > logical options seem equally viable.
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> - - - - - -
> The sound laws are not reversible here.
> Late NWGmc/Proto-Norse *th is naturally substituted
> by => Late Proto-
> Finnic *t, but
> Late Proto-Finnic *t would certainly _NOT_ give PN
> *th would it?
>
> There is nothing strange about NWGmc/Proto-Norse *X
> => Late Proto-
> Finnic *h , which is implied by Torsten.
> Compare the words
> haava 'wound' <= *Xawwa- > ON hogg,
> hallita (< *halti-) 'to master, to rule' <= *Xaldan
> 'hold'
> hamara 'back of ax, of hammer' <= *Xamara- 'stone,
> hammer etc.'
> haukka (< *havukka) 'falcon' <= *Xabuka-
> helppo 'easy; help' <= *Xelpo: 'help; auxiliary'
> humala 'hop' < *Xumala(n)- 'hop'
> hurskas 'righteous' <= Xurskaz 'wise'
> hypätä 'jump' <= *Xuppo:(ja)n or * Xuppjan
>
> and many others
>
> Also Old Swedish /h/ gives Finnish /h/. It is just a
> matter of
> determining when this substitution rule took effect.
> Obviously it was
> sometimes during the NW germanic time, and it was
> probably due to a
> sound development in the receiving language, not in
> germanic.
>
> hartia of course comes from *Xarthia- not *s-kult-er
>
> Jouppe
>
>
>

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