From: Rick McCallister
Message: 54145
Date: 2008-02-26
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> <gabaroo6958@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > It's definitely an odd situation. I realize they
> once
> > used the term "Hieroglyphic Hittite" but I thought
> the
> > term died out long, long ago. The idea that it's
> > possibly an Iranian among the Urartians makes
> sense
> > --although the Armenians claim they are the heirs
> to
> > the Urartians. It's something that does need to be
> > followed up, though.
>
>
> The idea that Schythians lived among the Urartians
> in eastern
> Kurdistan in the 7th centuty BC is perfectly
> acceptable -- there was
> plenty of Scythians and Cimmerians throughout the
> Near East during
> that century. What is not accepted in Harmatta's
> hypothesis is that
> the Saqqez inscription (Lake Urmia area) represents
> a written
> document encoding an ancient Scythian language, for
> which there are
> no other known parallels in the ANE. Prof. Alemany's
> critique I have
> reproduced in my earlier post is based on the fact
> that no other
> scholar has taken the hieroglyphic-like symbols
> engraved in that
> inscriprion as language-encoding signs -- therefore,
> how could the
> inscription have encoded an Iranian language?
>
> If Harmatta's hypothesis were true, that would be
> revolutionary:
> this would be the first written inscription in a
> Scythian language
> so far discovered west of Central Asia!
>
> Regards,
> Francesco
>
>
> >
> >
> > --- Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick
> McCallister
> > > <gabaroo6958@>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I found this incongruous --the idea that
> > > Hieroglyphic Hittite
> > > > script was used to write Scythian.
> > > > 1 --I thought the hieroglyphic script was
> Luwian
> > > > 2 --How would the Hittite have come in contact
> > > with
> > > > Scythians?
> > > > 3 --What is the date for this?
> > > >
> > > >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages
> > > > "Scythian Language" Wikipedia
> > > >
> > > > Inscriptions
> > > > Some scholars ascribe certain inscribed
> objects
> > > found
> > > > in the Carpathian Basin and in Central Asia to
> the
> > > > Scythians, but the interpretation of these
> > > > inscriptions remains disputed (given that
> nobody
> > > has
> > > > definitively identified the alphabet or
> translated
> > > the
> > > > content).
> > > > An inscription from Saqqez written in the
> > > Hieroglyphic
> > > > Hittite script may represent Scythian...
> > > > Transcription:
> > > > patinasana tapa. vasnam: 40 vasaka 30
> > > > arzatam ikar. UTA harsta XAYAL. | Partitava
> > > xaya
> > > > DAHYUupati xva|ipayam
> > > > Translation: "Delivered dish. Value: 40 calves
> 30
> > > > silver iqlu.
> > > > And it was presented to the king. | King
> > > Partitavas,
> > > > the masters of the land property."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Wikipedia article you cite attributes this
> > > linguistic hypothesis
> > > to J. Harmatta, "Herodotus, Historian of the
> > > Cimmerians and the
> > > Scythians", in W. Burkert (ed.) _Hérodote et les
> > > peuples non Grecs_,
> > > Genève, Fondation Hardt, 1990, pp. 115-30.
> > >
> > > The term "Hittite hieroglyphs" used by Harmatta
> to
> > > refer to the
> > > Saqqez inscription was once commonly applied to
> > > Anatolian
> > > hieroglyphs, but the current English scientific
> term
> > > is "Luwian
> > > hieroglyphs" because the Anatolian language
> encoded
> > > in the
> > > inscriptions is Luwian, not Hittite.
> > >
> > > Harmatta's alleged "translation" is rejected by
> the
> > > Catalan
> > > philologist A. Alemany in a note available
> online at
> > >
> > >
> http://ddd.uab.es/pub/faventia/02107570v21n1p151.pdf
> > > ,
> > >
> > > which I have tentatively translated into
> English:
> > >
> > > << In a surprising article, to say the least,
> János
> > > Harmatta
> > > interprets an inscription in Luwian hieroglyphic
> (?)
> > > found on a
> > > silver dish fragment coming from the "Scythian"
> > > grave of Ziwiye
> > > (Saqqez, southeast of Lake Urmia, Iranian
> Kurdistan
> > > as "an adoption
> > > and adaptation of the Hittite hieroglyphic
> alphabet
> > > (sic) to another
> > > language", in this case "some Old Iranian
> dialect,
> > > apparently the
> > > language of the Transcaucasian Scythians"; and
> then
> > > he reads in it a
> > > sequence of signs like <par-tì-ta5-wa5> =
> > > *Pr.ta-tavah "who has
> > > force for fighting", that is, the king Bartatua
> > > [a.k.a. Partatua,
> > > mentioned in an Assyrian inscription of
> Esarhaddon
> > > (681-669 BC), who
> > > even gave him a royal daughter in marriage, and
> > > generally identified
> > > with Herodotus' Protothyes -- Francesco], so
> that we
> > > would be in
> > > front of a document written up in his court or
> > > chancellery; the
> > > problem is that no other epigraphic monument has
> > > come to us of the
> > > language of the Scythians and this circumstance
> > > makes us difficult
> > > to believe in Harmatta's decipherment. [Footnote
> 9:
> > > "About the
> > > hieroglyphs (perhaps Urartian) of the artefact
> on
> > > question, cf.
> > > Diakonoff (op. cit.): "whether they belong to a
> > > writing system is
> > > not at all clear" ] >>
> > >
> > > The site of Saqqez was under the rule of the
> > > Manneans in the period
> > > in question (first half of the 7th century BC).
> The
> > > neighbours of
> > > Mannea to the north and northwest were the
> Urartians
> > > (of Hurrian
> > > linguistic affiliation) and the Transcaucasian
> > > Scythians of whom
> > > Bartatua was probably a king. The onomastic of
> the
>