Re: Uralic Continuity Theory ; Paleo-Germanic lexical borrowings in

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If 'hartia-' is from Germ. *hart-, what made the Finns
> > > suddenly change their mind about their supposedly ancient Germ.
> > > > *x- -> Finn. *k- ? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
> > > Torsten
> > >
> > > ===========

> > >
> > > Finnish hartia "shoulder"
> > > is really strange.
> > >
> > > It looks like an odd deformation
> > > of the root of *s-kul-t-er
> > > with *kul-t > *hart-
> > >
> > > I don't know if there are
> > > other cases when Finnish has
> > > -r- when -l- is expected.
> > >
> > > Arnaud
> > >
> > According to DEO *harþi-, pl. *harþiðz has plenty of family within
> > NWGermanic, but is otherwise 'of disputed origin'. Why it's
> > classified as a loan from Germanic to Finn. is a mystery to me;
> > the two other logical options seem equally viable.
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> - - - - - -
> The sound laws are not reversible here.
> Late NWGmc/Proto-Norse *th is naturally substituted by => Late
> Proto-Finnic *t, but Late Proto-Finnic *t would certainly _NOT_ give
> PN *th would it?

That would be option 2)
Don't be too sure about that; Kuhn has a number of NWBlock words
(substrate loans) in which Grimm's law has taken place only in one out
of two stops.

> There is nothing strange about NWGmc/Proto-Norse *X => Late Proto-
> Finnic *h , which is implied by Torsten.

Torsten never implied such a thing. I said that it is strange that
options 2) (loan Fin -> Gmc) and 3) (loan substrate Z -> Fin, Gmc)
were never considered when the word was *isolated* in Gmc. and
therefore likely to be non-IE, thus loaned in Gmc.

> Compare the words
> haava 'wound' <= *Xawwa- > ON hogg,
> hallita (< *halti-) 'to master, to rule' <= *Xaldan 'hold'
> hamara 'back of ax, of hammer' <= *Xamara- 'stone, hammer etc.'
> haukka (< *havukka) 'falcon' <= *Xabuka-
> helppo 'easy; help' <= *Xelpo: 'help; auxiliary'
> humala 'hop' < *Xumala(n)- 'hop'
> hurskas 'righteous' <= Xurskaz 'wise'
> hypätä 'jump' <= *Xuppo:(ja)n or * Xuppjan
>
> and many others

Sure. And that was not the point.

> Also Old Swedish /h/ gives Finnish /h/. It is just a matter of
> determining when this substitution rule took effect. Obviously it
> was sometimes during the NW germanic time, and it was probably due
> to a sound development in the receiving language, not in germanic.

Why 'probably' that?

> hartia of course comes from *Xarthia- not *s-kult-er

Noboby claimed it did. Arnaud hinted they might somehow be cognate.


Torsten