Fw: [tied] Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I have already told you, perhaps you did not see it, that Pokorny
> > mentions a root *ar- for *ar(e)g^-, 'whitish', which only makes
> > sense since PIE roots are *CVC (*Ha(:)r); and for Egyptian, is
> > <j3q.t>, 'leeks', white enough for you?
>
> As expected, the only PIE root you can turn to to support your own
> **ar-yo- 'the White People' is *ar(e)g^-, which at least REALLY
> denotes a kind of 'white'.
>
> ***
>
> Do you actually want to discuss this?
>
> I told you another PIE root that supports *ar-, 'pale/white', is *ar-,
> 'nut'. Unless you are a pistachio eater.
>
> A little farther away is *arenko-, Olyria, with a white flower.
>
> How about *aro:d-. '(great white) heron'?
>
> How is *arwa-, 'intestine' - is it usually transparently clear and
> whitish?
>
> Look in Pokorny?
>
>
> ***
> ***
>
> Apart from the fact that the PIE root *ar(e)-g^-, *rg^i-
> 'glittering, white, fast' has a clear semantic connotation of
> brilliance, brightness and shine which badly reconciles with your
> posited *Ha(:)r- 'pale/white' < PL *HHA-RA 'water-(foam)color/white
> blueish', my understanding of Pokorny's connection mentioned by you
> above is that the extended PIE root *ar(e)g^, *rg^i- would be
> derived from *er-1, *or- 'eagle, fast', and certainly not from a pre-
> existing PIE root *ar- 'whitish', which is just an invention of
> yours.
>
> ***
>
> Totally inaccurate.
>
> Pokorny, p. 65: "Specht (Dekl. 114-1) setzt wegen gr. arme: * leuke: Hes.
> eine Farbwurzel ar- an, die er mit al- (oben S. 31) gleichsetzt."
>
> ***
>
> See Lubotsky and Starostin's opening note to their machine-translated
> and subsequently recognized English version of Pokorny's dictionary
> (available in the List's files section -- I hope the diacriticals
> will come out in the post!):
>
> -----------------------
>
> Root / lemma: ar(e)-ĝ- (arĝ-?), r̥ĝi-
> (*her-(e)-ĝ-)
> Meaning: glittering, white, fast
> German meaning: `glänzend, weißlich'
>
> Note:
>
> Old Indian r̥ji-pyá ` darting along ' epithet of the bird
> śyená-
> (`eagle, falcon'), Av. ǝrǝzi-fya- (cf. gr.
> ἄρξιφος
> ἀετὸς παρὰ
> Πέρσαις H.,
> αἰγίποψ), arm. arcui (< *arci-wi)
> `eagle' prove that
> from Root / lemma: er-1, or- : `eagle, *fast' derived extended
> Root / lemma: ar(e)-ĝ- (arĝ-?), r̥ĝi- :
> `glittering, white, fast'
> and its subsequent zero grade Root / lemma: reĝ-1 : `right, just, to
> make right; king'.
>
> Material:
>
> Old Indian árju-na-ḥ ` bright, white '; rajatá- `
> whitish ', rajatám
> híraṇyam ` whitish gold, i.e. silver ', rajatám ` silver
> ' with
> flashy, in spite of Osthoff MU. VI 33 not from zero grade r̥ (or
> likewise) deducible vocalism compared with av. ǝrǝzata- n., Old
> pers. ardata- ` silver ' (r̥-) : TN illyr. Ardiaei common alb. -
> illyr. -ĝ- > -d- phonetic mutation.
> lat. argentum, osk. aragetud `silver', air. arggat, mir. airget,
> cymr. arian(t), corn. mbret. argant, nbret. arc'hant ` silver ',
> gall. PN Arganto-magus; arcanto-dan .. ` coin minter, mint-master,
> the master or superintendent of a mint ',
> Maybe alb. (*argento) argjend `silver'.
> arm. arcat` `silver', toch. A ārkyant N. Pl. f.; with other
> formation gr. ἄργυρος `silver' (in
> spite of these equations the
> knowledge of the silver for the primeval times stands not sure, see
> about that point and about the borrowing question Schrader RL.II2
> 394, G. Ipsen IF. 39, 235 f., Festschr. Streitberg 228), messap.
> argorian (: ἀργύριον) ds.,
> argora-pandes (*arguro-pondi̯os)
> `quaestor, state treasurer '.
> Thrak. ἄργιλος ` (*white) mouse ',
> FlN ῎Αρζος (*Argi̯os).
> Gr. ἀργός ` white, fast ', in compounds
> ἀργι- :
> ἀργι-κέραυνος
> `
> with shining thunderbolt ',
> ἀργι-όδων ` with brilliantly
> white
> teeth ' (thereafter also *ἀργινός for
> ἀργεννός, further formation to
> ἀργινόεις, epithet of towns
> situated on white lime or chalk
> mountains); ἀργαίνω ` is white '.
> ἀργός probably after Wackernagel Verm.
> Beitr. 8 f. from *ἀργρός
> dissimilated, wherefore i-stem ἀργι- of compounds
> behaves as av.
> dǝrǝzi-raϑa- ` possessing steady chariot ' to
> dǝrǝzra- ` solid '.
> With ἀργός phonetically same Old Indian
> r̥jrá- connotes also `
> shining ', is in this meaning with ἀργός
> `white' etymological
> identical (in addition also Old Indian ŕ̥jīti-,
> r̥jīka- `
> radiating ').
> Old Indian r̥jrá- ` fast ', Ṛji-śvan- ` the allied
> Indras ordering
> about fast dogs ' = gr. ἀργός `fast' (likewise
> of dogs, also already
> proto linguistic epithet, see Schulze Kl. Schr. 124),
> ἀργί-πους `
> fleet-footed ', horses Πόδ-αργος,
> upholds Persson Beitr. 828 from
> ἀργός (r̥jrá-) ` white ' different
> word (to the root reĝ- `
> straight, right, directly ' in Old Indian r̥jīsá- `
> rushing straight
> for ', r̥ji-pyá ` darting along ', etc), against Bechtel Lexil.
> 57,
> the concept of the lights allows to have flowed from that of the
> quick movement (compare ` as quick as a flash, at lightning speed ')
> as well as Schulze aaO.
> Sides of the same observation considered as to try illuminating
> power, brightness of the color, and quickness of the movement
> (compare lat. micāre `move rapidly to and fro, vibrate, flicker; to
> shine, glitter, sparkle').
> ἄργεμον,
> ἄργεμα n. ` the whiteness (in the eye,
> nail)', ἀργήεις,
> dor. ἀργᾶς
> (*ἀργᾱFεντς `shining';
> es-stem in ἐναργής ` perspicuous,
> clear ', ἀργεσ-τής epithet of
> νότος, ` elucidative, brightening '
> (see lastly Schwyzer Gr. Gr. I 5001),
> ἀργεννός ` white sheen, white
> luster, white-gleaming '
> (*ἀργεσ-νός); maybe also in
> ἀργειφόντης
> epithet of Hermes (` in slaying brilliance '?).
> On account of es-stem av. аrǝzah- ` afternoon and evening '
> so
> that belongs together etymologically, at least half the meaning is
> quite doubtful, see. Bartholomae Airan. Wb. 202, Bechtel aaO.
> Maybe alb. (*аrǝz-) errët `dark', err `darken' : av.
> аrǝzah- `
> afternoon and evening '
> ἀργής, -ῆτος, -έτι,
> -έτα ` white-gleaming ';
> ἄργιλλος and
> ἄργῑλος ` white clay ' (lat. Lw.
> argilla, argīla : alb. argjilë
> `white clay, mud'): ἄργυ-ρος see
> above, ἄργυ-φος,
> ἀργύ-φεος `
> shining white ' (in the word ending probably to root bhā- ` shine ',
> Prellwitz BB. 22, 90, Bechtel Lexil. 57 f.).
> Maybe alb. harc, harca Pl. `rocky landscape'; alb. has preserved the
> old laryngeal ḫ-.
> Lat. argentum see above; arguō `to put in clear light; to
> declare, prove; to accuse, blame, expose, convict ', argūtus `to the
> eye, expressive, lively; talkative to the ear, piercing, shrill,
> noisy; of omens, clear, significant; of persons, sagacious, cunning;
> (since Cicero also:) beaming, shimmering ' and ` shrewd '.
> Toch. A ārki, В ā̆rkwi `white'
> (*arĝu̯i̯o-), ārcune ` epithet of
> the royal title ', A ārki-śoṣi ` white world ' (compare
> cymr. elfydd
> S. 30); hett. ḫar-ki-is (ḫarkis) `white'.
> Maybe alb. (*arg-) jargë `white saliva'
> Note:
> alb. j- stands for the lost old laryngeal ḫ-.
> e-vocalism shown by those of Osthoff MU. V, S. V, and MU. VI 33
> considered for got. unaírkns ` impure, unclean ', aírkniÞa `
> cleanness, genuineness ', ahd. erchan ` right, just, real, true,
> genuine ', anord. jarknasteinn, ags. eorcnanstān ` precious stone,
> jewel ' (in addition also anord. jarteikn n. ` emblems ' from *jar
> [kn]-teikn, Lidén by Noreen Aisl. Gr.3 ̨p. 281, 6); compare
> also
> Feist 25b.
> As securely one cannot consider the affiliation of germ. words,
> however, was concerning the vocalism intersection from germ. *ark- =
> idg. *arĝ- with *erk- = Old Indian árcati, idg. *erk- at least
> conceivable.
> About that of Uhlenbeck KZ. 40, 552, 560 considered for lit.
> árzuolas, ązuolas, dial. áuzuolas, ostlit. dial.
> úzolas ` oak ', see
> rather Bezzenberger KZ. 42, 263, Trautmann Old Prussian 301,
> whereupon anz- (compare аpr. ansonis) the original form is
> (different Zupitza KZ. 36, 66, Germ. Gutt. 214).
> By Hirts (Abl. 124) basic *ar(e)ĝ- cause germ. words difficulty,
> however, see above. The basis of a 2th root vowel (areĝ-) is given
> only by Old Indian rajatám ` whitish ', thus dubious.
> References: WP. I 82 f., II 362 f., WH. I 66, 848, Feist 25,
> Schwyzer Gr. Gr. I 260, 447, 481, Frisk Nominalbildg. 4.
>
>
>
> ***
> Specht (Dekl. 1141) places because of gr. ἄρμη
> λευκή Hes. a
> color root in ar-, he equates with al- (see above S. 31).
> Page(s): 64-65
>
>
> Could you not see this? Does that look like *ar- or *er-.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Patrick
> ----------------
>
> Regards,
> Francesco