Re: [tied] Re: Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

You wrote :

"Proto Indo Europeans used agricult(u)re."

"So the extent to which reconstrcuted PIE vocabular reflects
agriculture can be used both to support and refute Renfrew's theory. "

I definitely disagree with the first sentence.

We know from archeology that there were two "paths" for the expansion of breeding.

One reached Central Europe from Anatolia,

the other one reached Eastern Europe from Caucasus. (around - 7000)

Cf. MAllory.

If you look at the supposedly PIE words for breeding, especially sheep and goats.

Usually breeders have a complex set of words for :

- male

- castrated male

- female

- bear new-born animals

- one, two- years old young animal.

Note that the lack of such a set for the "Horse" is also an indication

that horses are late-comers in the (already scattered) indo-european world.

As for sheep and goats,

only Italic and Celtic display a complete phonetically coherent set of words.

Germanic and Greek have some "problems" in the details.

i.e agw(h)nos is unclean.

Germanic looks like Celtic loanwords

CF. also the word "H2aw" barley

And what is more important,

Eastern PIE dialects : indo-iranian, balto-slavic, germanic

display loanwords from Kartvelian as can be expected

if theses languages and ONLY these languages are occupying

eastern Europe around the years - 7000.

So the conclusion is very simple.

When agriculture was invented, and started diffusing, after - 8000,

the western branch of PIE : italic and Celtic had long ago split from the rest

and received diffusion from Anatolia

the eastern branch of PIE : indo-iranian, balto-slavic, germanic

was occupying eastern Europe and received diffusion from Caucasus.

Renfrew's theory is refuted because PIE split into particular languages

BEFORE agriculture was invented.

----- Original Message -----

From: mkelkar2003

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 7:06 PM

Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

Proto Indo Europeans used agricultre.

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Proto-Indo- European_ society

"Proto-Indo- European society depended on animal husbandry. Cattle
(*gʷō us) were the most important animals to them, and a man's wealth
would be measured by the number of cows he owned. Sheep (*H₃ówis) and
goats (*gʰáidos) were also kept, presumably by the less wealthy.
Agriculture and catching fish (*písḱos) were also practiced."

http://www.geocitie s.com/Paris/ LeftBank/ 6507/chronicle12 0.html#technol
ogy

"We can learn more about the earliest Indo-Europeans from other
aspects of their reconstructed vocabulary. Some words, for example,
describe an agricultural technology whose existence dates back to
5000 B.C. By that time the agricultural revolution had spread north
from its origins in the Fertile Crescent, where the first
archaeological evidence of cultivation dates back to at least 8000
B.C. From this region agriculture also spread southward to sustain
the Mesopotamian civilizations and westward to Egypt. The Indo-
European words for "barley," "wheat" and "flax";
for "apples," "cherries" and their trees, for "mulberries" and their
bushes; for "grapes" and their vines; and for the various implements
with which to cultivate and harvest them describe a way of life
unknown in northern Europe until the third or second millennium B.C.,
when the first archaeological evidence appears."

http://www.robotwis dom.com/science/ pie/

"They had already adopted livestock-herding from the non-caucasian
mideast where agriculture had been evolving for 5000 years, and where
small cities were already starting to form, though writing was still
a millennium off.

Reconstructed pIE vocabulary likely included: cow, ox, steer, cattle-
raid, sacrifice, butter, cheese, plow, yoke, wheel, axle, boat,
sheep, wool, weaving, belt, pig, horse, dog, grain, sowing, grinding,
sickle, house, post, door, doorpost, hearth, clan, chief, fort, pot,
whetstone, hemp, flax, bow, arrow, dagger, fart, widow, lead-home
(wed), put-heart (worship), father-god, sun-god, storm-god, three
estates (white priest, red warrior, dark farmer), three cures
(spells, surgery, herbs), twin, right-good, left-sinister"

another theory

http://www.esd. ornl.gov/ projects/ qen/Indo2. html

Kelkar: So the extent to which reconstrcuted PIE vocabular reflects
agriculture can be used both to support and refute Renfrew's theory.

M. Kelkar