[tied] Re: park, was *pVs- for cat

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
> >
> > At 5:57:33 AM on Tuesday, July 31, 2007, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> > > <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > >> park is an intersting word
> >
> > >> 1. It can't be Q-Celtic
> >
> > >> 2. It couldn't have been borowed by Goidelic until after
> > >> 500-600 AD because early Old Irish systematically
> > >> replaced /p/ with /kw/ then /k/
> >
> > > In loans from p-Celtic, you mean?
> >
> > In all loans. E.g., Latin <Patricius> was first borrowed as
> > <Cothriche>, where the <o> (instead of <a>) shows that the
> > initial stop originally had a labial component: had the /p-/
> > been borrowed as /k-/ rather than as /kW-/, the result would
> > have been **<Cathriche>.
>
> Yes, but the question was whether the loans had passed through a
> p-Celtic language first.
>
>
> > > Everything is temporary, so there must have been a time
> > > before that period where Old Irish didn't do that.
> >
> > Actually, it's *after* that period that OIr ceased to do
> > that, as in the later reborrowing of <Patricius> as OIr
> > <Pátric> /pa:drig/.
>
> Maybe you should read what I wrote. If there is a time period in
> which I eat dinner, then there is a time period after that in which
> I don't eat dinner, but there is also a time period before that in
> which I don't eat dinner.
>
>
> > > If it replaced all /p/'s with /kW/'s, all words in p- must
> > > be loaned later than 500-600AD and will be NWBlock words
> > > in English.
> >
> > They will be loans, full stop. They aren't all from
> > English, and of course it isn't established that non-Latin,
> > non-Romance <p-> words in English are NWBlock (unless you
> > simply define them to be so, in which case 'NWBlock' is
> > merely shorthand for something like 'Gmc. /p-/ word with no
> > known source').
>
> The only source that has been proposed for Germanic words in p- is
> NWBlock, it would also contain words from the earlier non-IE ar-/-ur
> language. If you know of other possible sources, let us know.

From Dineen: Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla
"
p
(peith, dwarf elder), the fourteenth letter of the modern Irish
Alphabet, does not survive from Indo-European forms in Irish or Welsh,
e.g., úr, W. ir, Lat. pur-us; Welsh later developed p initials from
Celtic q, which became c in Irish, e.g., W. pen, Ir. ceann; it is
therefore generally of secondary origin in Irish, either as the
initial of words formed from Lat., Welsh or English, or from Irish
words in f or b; early tribe names however are Partraighe and
Papraighe; some words borrowed from Latin through Welsh, e.g., pascha,
cáisc here had the initial changed on the analogy of native words; cf.
Pádraig, Cathraighe (Cothraighe), both said to be from Patricius; note
al. fairche, pairche, Lat. parochia; p arises internally from ch and
th, as in timcheall tímpeall, iomchar iompar, timthireacht
timpireacht, cumtha cumpa; leaba leabtha leapa; cf. cruimhthear (Lat.
prebiter, Contr.) and Cell Chruimthir, now Kilcrumper; it smt.
interchanges with b and f, and Lat. names, etc., in ph give p or f,
e.g., Pilib (Filip), Philip; Finéas, Phineas.
"

In other words, some words in p- survived from before O.Ir.'s
converting p- > (kW- >) c-, which then must have taken place solely in
words taken in via p-Celtic(?).


Torsten