[tied] Re: park, was *pVs- for cat

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:

>
> At 5:57:33 AM on Tuesday, July 31, 2007, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> > <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> park is an intersting word
>
> >> 1. It can't be Q-Celtic
>
> >> 2. It couldn't have been borowed by Goidelic until after
> >> 500-600 AD because early Old Irish systematically
> >> replaced /p/ with /kw/ then /k/
>
> > In loans from p-Celtic, you mean?
>
> In all loans. E.g., Latin <Patricius> was first borrowed as
> <Cothriche>, where the <o> (instead of <a>) shows that the
> initial stop originally had a labial component: had the /p-/
> been borrowed as /k-/ rather than as /kW-/, the result would
> have been **<Cathriche>.

Yes, but the question was whether the loans had passed through a
p-Celtic language first.

> > Everything is temporary, so there must have been a time
> > before that period where Old Irish didn't do that.
>
> Actually, it's *after* that period that OIr ceased to do
> that, as in the later reborrowing of <Patricius> as OIr
> <Pátric> /pa:drig/.

Maybe you should read what I wrote. If there is a time period in which
I eat dinner, then there is a time period after that in which I don't
eat dinner, but there is also a time period before that in which I
don't eat dinner.

> > If it replaced all /p/'s with /kW/'s, all words in p- must
> > be loaned later than 500-600AD and will be NWBlock words
> > in English.
>
> They will be loans, full stop. They aren't all from
> English, and of course it isn't established that non-Latin,
> non-Romance <p-> words in English are NWBlock (unless you
> simply define them to be so, in which case 'NWBlock' is
> merely shorthand for something like 'Gmc. /p-/ word with no
> known source').

The only source that has been proposed for Germanic words in p- is
NWBlock, it would also contain words from the earlier non-IE ar-/-ur
language. If you know of other possible sources, let us know.


Torsten