Re: [tied] Pferd

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 49438
Date: 2007-07-30

I strongly disagree !
 
As for Paris, and Oise River,
Oise comes from *isarâ not the short form *is-
The other river Isère also come forme *isarâ
The difference is :
    Gaulish accent on i : isara > oise
    Latin accent on a : isara > isère
Cf. the town Pontoise : Pontus Isarae (in text of IV century)
The etymology "those on the river Oise" would be : ar-isarii.
BUT this type of tribe name based on *ar + river names does not exist.
There isn't any reason to supposed non Gaulish people in this part of France,
Gaulish accentuation in place names shows a strong presence of Gaulish people.
Isère River is in the south : Latin accent.
As a general rule, Gaulish accent is the same as in Latin, one syllabe shifted to the initial (if possible)
This is the objective criterion to tell whether it is Gaulish or LAtin.
 
Some tribe names are based on tree names,
so my own explanation :
Parisi < *kwr-s-i : those of the oak (Root *kwrs-u oak)
Carnuti < those of the hornbeam tree
Eburi < those of the yew
 
As for Pferd,
the explanation in Kluge seems perfectly acceptable to me.
para-veredus is a late LAtin word,
hybrid : Greek para- + Gaulish veredus, hence paravered
Kluge writes that the German borrowing dates back to the VI century.
Greek language was present in southern France, as early as -600,
This fact is very often forgotten.
 
Hybrid words are not rare in French etymology : for example,
Greek oino-phulon vineyard > latinized into vino-pOlus > GAulish accented (!!) vinO-pol-
Hence modern French vignoble.
You can find Greek-LAtinized-GAulish-like hybrids as far to the north as Burgundy.
I even read that the first attempt to christianize France was made in Greek not LAtin !
French has some Greek words that do not exist in other Roman LAnguages,
so it is not wonder that the prefix *para- might have used to build a hybrid word.
 
Arnaud
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Gasiorowski
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Pferd

On 2007-07-29 16:17, tgpedersen wrote:

> Ernout-Meillet under uere:dus has parauere:dus, but OHG pferifri:d,
> pferi:d, and "irl. falafraidh semble provenir du français"(?). in
> other words, -f- in that position.

How about Germanic /f/ substituting post-Class.Lat. /v/, as in Old
English fers <-- versus?

> (Is their next entry relevant:
> "uerennes: a uehere, i.e. exportare nominatae, Isid., Or.20,14,13.
> Inexpliqué."? )
>
> Para- is not necessarily Graeco-Latin, cf 'Belgian' Par-isii "those on
> the Oise"

Wasn't the Oise called "Isara", and is there any evidence of any sort of
connection between the river and the people? The name of the Parisii is
usually etymologised as 'the Kettle Folk' (from Celt. *kWarjo-); some
connect it with the verb *kWarje/o- 'make' (PIE *kWer-) or the noun
*kWar(f)o- 'spear' (< *kWerp-).

Piotr