Re: Italic root *ored(h)- and ready

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Carl Hult <datalampa@...> wrote:
>
> > I was looking at the word ´order´ and found the proposed italic

root

> > for that word, *ored(h)- and saw how well it corresponds to the
> > germanic words for ready. The proposed root for ready is P.Gmc.
> > *garaidijaz and if one strips away the prefix ga- and the ending

you

> > will have a word that at least looks like italic *ored(h)-. I am
> > "ready" to accept a common root for these two words. What it

would

> look
> > like I dare not say at this stage.
>
> It is not very easy, but the two do not appear to be related. I am
> pretty convinced by the old etymology for *ga-raidi- as meaning
> originally 'accessible on horseback', i.e. containing the root

*reidh-

> 'to ride'. The same verb exists in Celtic: OIr. riad- 'ride',

note

> esp. the adjectives so-raid 'easy', do-raid 'difficult'
> (properly "gut/schlecht bereitbar"), Welsh rhwydd 'easy, even'

(Celtic

> *su-/du-reidi-). The special original semantics is supported by

the

> fact that the ON adjective greidr 'easy' forms the compounds greid-
> foer, greid-gengr both meaning 'passable' said of the terrain. It

may

> seem that German bereiten 'make ready' properly meant 'ride
> upon', 'subject to riding', probably in the sense of breaking

forest

> and making the terrain passable. There is also a Lith. adj.
> raidùs 'easy' and a Latvian causative verb raidi:t 'send'; I

suppose

> these originally meant 'easy to ride on' and 'make ride'.
>
> I do not know where you have your "Italic root *ored(h)-" for

ordo:,

> ordinis from, but I can easily see how it was arrived at. There is

> verb *re:dh-/*ro:dh- seen in Goth. ga-redan 'take care of', ON
> ráda 'advise', Skt. ra:dhnóti 'bring in order', OIr.

rádid 'speeks',

> Slav. OCS raditi 'take care of'. Now, that points at first glance

to a

> root *reH1dh- alternating with *roH1dh-. That does not lend itself

too

> easily to a connection with Lat. ordo: because the sequence *-rdh-
> yields -rb- in Latin (verbum). So, to connect them we need an
> unaspirated *d.
>
> It now so happens that a synchronic root *reH1dh- may simply
> have "preaspiration", i.e. aspiration of a stop induced by a

preceding

> H1 or H2. This is a rule discovered by my wife Birgit Olsen and
> presented a number of times already, apparently with little echo

among

> those in a position to shape general opinions. There is a short
> presentation in the Zürich Fachtagung (1992, publ. 1994), and

there is

> also the first presentation in her study on The PIE Instrument-

Noun

> suffix *-tlom and its Variants" from the Danish Videnskabernes

Selskab

> in 1988, and now the utilization for the clarification of the

Latin

> suffix -idus in Historische Sprachforschung 116 from 2003. I may

> under suspicion of being biased, and I am certainly not so biased
> against it as the belligerant phalanx that wants to monopolize
> opinions, but let me just report the theory: In a prestage of the

> protolanguage, the sequences *-H1-T- and *-H2-T- (T being a

plosive)

> were fused to aspirates *-Th-. Practically all examples involve H

+ t

> yielding IE *th, a phoneme that constitutes a red rag on the
> opposition. It is not quite clear to what extent the laryngeal was
> lost in the process; there are clear examples both of the

structure *-

> eH1t- > *-eH1th- > -e:th- with a laryngeal-induced long vowel and

> the structure *-eH1t- > *-eth- with loss of the laryngeal and
> therefore a short vowel in the result. Some of the long vowels are

> doubt due to secondary restoration of the laryngeal, but it is not

yet

> clear if that can be extended to all cases. But suffice it to say

for

> our present purpose that *re:dh- can indeed reflect original

*reH1d-

> with UNaspirated *d.
>
> Now for the *o- and loss of the laryngeal. I have worked that out,

and

> by the phalanx mentioned this is now called Saussure's rule.

Saussure

> noticed that reflexes of laryngeals were missing in a few Greek

words

> which had the vocalism -o- and he said that was regular, but never
> stated a rule. I subjected the matter to a closer inspection in my
> Danish doctor's dissertation of 1989 (publ. in Innsbruck), finding
> that it worked only with a special kind of o-vocalism which had

some

> very surprising qualities which were only understandable if the o

had

> once been a consonant. I therefore posited a pre-PIE "infixal O"

which

> explained all the funny observations. I later found that this

element

> was not infixed, but prefixed, if the root began with r-. Now, for
> *reH1d-, that has the following effect: *O-reH1d-é/ó- > *O-rH1d-

é/ó- >

> *O-rd-e/o- with loss of the laryngeal and therefore no aspiration,

and

> finally PIE *ord-e/o-. The O-infix formations are thematic, so I

would

> believe the Latin n-stem ordin- has a background comparable to the
> Germanic weak adjective: *-o-s => *-on-. This of course all

depends on

> the corectness of a number of observations and rules about them

which

> are not generally accepted (but never replaced by an alternative
> either!), so this is a possibility only to the precious few who

really

> believe. On this list I have had the funny experience that my
> observations have practically all been accepted, but a fight has

been

> going on to replace my account of their background by anything

else

> that could work more poorly. I should perhaps feel flattered that

> theories are currently subjected to attempts of hijacking, but I

would

> have preferred a more constructive climate of scholarly discussion.
>
> Thus, under the rules observed in this house Latin ordo: and Goth.

ga-

> redan can indeed be related, but ON greidr cannot.
>
> Jens

************
According to Calvert Watkins "The American Heritage Dictionary of
Indo-European Roots" (second edition) word 1a. <ordo> and all other
derivates present also in English: ordain, ordinal, ordinance,
ordinate, coordinal etc. are derived from PIE root *o:rd- 'to
arrange, arrangment', which is Italic root of uncertain origin;
oldest form *o:r&d(h)-; b. Ornament, ornate; adorn, from Lat.
o:rna:re (<*o:rd(i)na:) 'to adorn'. 2. exordium, primordial from
Latin <o:rdi:ri> 'to begin to waeve' (pp.60).

I doubt, despite the vocalism, that also Alb. verb <ardhang> 'to be
in order, refresh, invigorate, rivive', as well as <i
ardhun/ardh> 'having a well-built body' (vashë/djalë i
ardhun/ardhur 'well-built, handsome, charmed boy/girl'); mollë e
ardhun/ardhur 'ripe apple, which is in order to be eaten'; may be
related. Perhaps from aphetci *r&dh-eH2 form > Alb. <radhë> 'row',
prefixed form <aradhë> 'battalion' may also be related to this root
(?).

Konushevci