From: george knysh
Message: 31967
Date: 2004-04-16
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh*****GK: What comment would you want? They seem to be
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Before I forget, yesterday's Berlingske Tidende
> had
> > > an article on the
> > > weapons deposit finds in the Vimose bog (0 - 200
> CE)
> > > on Fyn: five
> > > ring-pommeled swords (usually considered to a
> > > Sarmatian thing). The
> > > researcher involved didn't say as much, but the
> > > angle of the article
> > > was: Danes might have participated in the
> Marcomanni
> > > war we know
> > > from "Gladiator". The understood premise is that
> > > this would have been
> > > the first opportunity for people from this
> country
> > > to meet
> > > Sarmatians. Unfortunately (this was news to me)
> the
> > > notes of the
> > > excavators have been lost, and the finds are
> > > scattered all over
> > > Europe, since a local priest sold out of them,
> so
> > > there is not much
> > > of a chance to place the supposedly Sarmatian
> swords
> > > anywhere within
> > > the given timeframe.
> > >
> > > Torsten
>
> I see you had no comment on the ring-pommeled
> swords.
> find it strange that people from Denmark should have*****GK: We can speculate to our hearts' content about
> travelled to
> Bohemia to fight the Romans, there aquired some
> Sarmatian swords, and
> then travelled home and dumped them in a bog. You'd
> expect the
> weapons you find in a weapons deposit to have
> belonged to the
> vanquished, who furthermore were vanquished in the
> vicinity of the
> bog. We know no accounts of Germanic peoples having
> travelled long
> distances to dump their trophies in particular bogs.
> >(GK)Rydberg's study of this****GK: Are you suggesting that some latter day
> > problem, though over one hundred years old,
> remains
> > the best antidote. Cf.
> > http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/007.php?
> PHPSESSID=8920370ec3d7612e4af8c5277e0f4833
> >
> > There is, however, one point which readers of this
> > thread should remember. And it is this: your
> theory is
> > not Snorri's theory. At best, one may view it as a
> > "variation on a theme from Snorri in the
> > Ynglingasaga". At the moment, you are searching
> for
> > archaeological proof that "Odin's people" wandered
> > westward through Bastarnia and Vandalia before
> they
> > reached Germany proper ("Saxland"). But the route
> from
> > "Asaland" which you have picked for them is not
> the
> > one scripted by Snorri. (The Snorra Edda has
> nothing
> > to say about the specifics of the route, and in
> any
> > case its identification of Turkland with Troy, and
> of
> > Odin as a 20th generation descendant of King Priam
> of
> > Troy should be warrant enough for instant
> dismissal.
>
> Go talk to Schliemann about it.
>*****GK: Not discovered, invented (and not in the
>
> > It knows nothing of "Asgard", "Vanaland",
> "Tanakvisl"
> > et sim. So it's either Heimskringla or it's
> nothing.)
> > But what does Snorri say? (1) That "Asaland"
> (Odin's
> > country) was located somewhere to the east of the
> Don
> > river, and certainly to the east of "Vanaland",
> which
> > occupied both banks of the Don. [let's not get
> into
> > the impossible archaeology for this, because I
> only
> > want to make a point about the specifics of
> "Odin's
> > journey" according to Snorri] (2) That at some
> point
> > between 70 and 60 BC [the timeframe for Pompey the
> > Roman's conquests in the east, incl. the
> destruction
> > of Mithradates' Empire (which would have abutted
> on
> > the so-called "Vanaland" from the south) and the
> > defeat of Armenia], Odin decided to abandon
> Asaland
> > and set forth on his journey. (3) That initially
> he
> > travelled "westward to Gardariki". Presumably
> since at
> > that time (in Snorri's account) Asaland and
> Vanaland
> > were friends and allies, the "westward" journey
> would
> > start from the Asaland-Vanaland territories, i.e.
> Odin
> > would move across to Don towards the setting sun.
> What
> > was "Gardariki" for Snorri? It was the territory
> of
> > the Rus' complex of his time (as "Turkland" was
> the
> > Seldjuk Asia Minor). We know the geographical
> > boundaries of this complex very well. What next?
> (4)
> > From "Gardariki" Odin and co. travelled "SOUTH" to
> > "Saxland". Now how is it possible to do that?
> There is
> > only one scenario: they are imagined by Snorri to
> have
> > taken "the road from the Greeks to the
> Varangians",
> > which was the prime highway for east-bound
> > Scandinavians in Snorri's time. The most northerly
> > city of the Rus' complex at that time was Ladoga,
> also
> > well known to Norsemen, and from Ladoga, the way
> to
> > "Saxland" is indeed a way to the south. ===
>
> So I'll grant you that: Snorri imposed the routes
> known at his time
> on the material he discovered.
>*****GK: Not stopping on their way from northernost
>
>
> >Let's not
> > worry about the anachronism (one of many). After
> all
> > in the Old Ukrainian Chronicle, the Apostle Andrew
> is
> > made to travel from Chersones to Rome by this
> > "Varangian Road" in the mid-first first century
> AD.
> > (5) After having spent some time in "Saxland" the
> > Odinists started their expansion northward.== This
> > assumes that at first they passed by Scandinavia
> > without stopping. That assumption is entirely
> > compatible with Snorri's story.
>
> I am afraid I don't follow? Stopping on their way
> to?
>****GK: There is no corroborating historical or
>
> > Now I don't think it is possible to demonstrate
> > Snorri's version. It's fantasy.
>
> Because?
>=== message truncated ===
>
> >But at least it's
> > fantasy once removed from reality, not twice (as
> yours
> > is, since your theory is "Snorri" (snippets from
> > Snorri) + Torsten). Snorri doesn't say how long
> the
> > trip from Asaland to Saxland took. If you opt for
> the
> > "long" version, you'll have to find your Sarmatian
>