Re: [tied] Re: Albanian = Illyrian (1)

17-11-03 21:33, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
> <piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

>> while
>> those "soundlaws" are indeed Albanian, their date is post-Roman.
>
> [AK]It's not true: Some soundlaws continue to affect also Greek and
> Latin loans too, like evolution of cluster /st/ > /sht/ (cf. Alb.
> shtalb 'baby corn' < *st-, zero-grade form of PIE *sta: 'to stand' +
> *alb-, bilabial extended root of PIE *al- 'to grow, nurish',
> <mashtrapë> 'jug, tankard' < *ambhi- (mbë- > m-) + *ag^s- (>ash) + -
> ter (comparative suffix) + *ap- 'water').

Abdullah, let me repeat it slow-ly ... and ... dis-tinc-ly: Those
changes were POST-ROMAN, which is PRECISELY why they affected Latin
loanwords as well as anything inherited or borrowed earlier. What's "not
true" then? If the changes had been pre-Roman, Latin loans would not
have been affected.

> [AK] Reflexes of PIE diphthong *au: In the words, where this
> diphthong is stressed, normal outcome is /a/: Lat. aurum > ar 'gold',
> Lat. laurus > Alb. lar 'laurel', Lat. gaudio > gaz 'joy, happiness',
> but when this diphthong is unstressed, its endure aphaeresis: Lat.
> Augustus > gusht 'August', Lat. avunculus > ungj 'uncle', etc.)

Exactly. Both inherited and Latin /au/ give Albanian /a/ (lost when
initial and unstressed). This can only mean that the name Vlorë is
neither inherited nor even taken directly from Latin. It _must_ be a
loan from a language (presumably Romance or Slavic) that had /aw/ or
/av/ after Albanian had changed *au to /a/, so that the the second
element of the diphthong (or its consonantal reflex) was interpreted as
/v/ in Albanian.

> -ona as prefix (probably shared with Celtic) is very present in
> Illyrian toponymy: Emona (today Lubjana), Salona (today Solin),
> Narona (today Norin), Skardona (today Skradin) - even in XV century
> we have evidence of its use in Kosova: Grabanica < Grabana + -ica,
> besides Grabona. So, I don't see any reason why such suffix didn't
> persist and resist also in early times. Form Aulo:na, like you
> present it was never attested.

The <o> of ancient <Aulona> was long /o:/ (that's why I provided a
length-mark, though of course ancient scribes simply wrote <o>). The
Latin stress on the penult is sufficient evidence of that.

> [AK] But we are not talking for England or France, but for territory
> inhabited by Albanians in the past.

Late Latin (and Proto-Romance) articu- < arcticus was not restricted to
France. Compare Italian artico, Spanish ártico, etc.

Piotr