Re: Albanian = Illyrian (1)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

> 17-11-03 21:33, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
> > <piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
>
> >> while
> >> those "soundlaws" are indeed Albanian, their date is post-Roman.
> >
> > [AK]It's not true: Some soundlaws continue to affect also Greek

and

> > Latin loans too, like evolution of cluster /st/ > /sht/ (cf. Alb.
> > shtalb 'baby corn' < *st-, zero-grade form of PIE *sta: 'to

stand' +

> > *alb-, bilabial extended root of PIE *al- 'to grow, nurish',
> > <mashtrapë> 'jug, tankard' < *ambhi- (mbë- > m-) + *ag^s- (>ash)

+ -

> > ter (comparative suffix) + *ap- 'water').
>
> Abdullah, let me repeat it slow-ly ... and ... dis-tinc-ly: Those
> changes were POST-ROMAN, which is PRECISELY why they affected Latin
> loanwords as well as anything inherited or borrowed earlier.

What's "not

> true" then? If the changes had been pre-Roman, Latin loans would

not

> have been affected.
>
> > [AK] Reflexes of PIE diphthong *au: In the words, where this
> > diphthong is stressed, normal outcome is /a/: Lat. aurum >

ar 'gold',

> > Lat. laurus > Alb. lar 'laurel', Lat. gaudio > gaz 'joy,

happiness',

> > but when this diphthong is unstressed, its endure aphaeresis:

Lat.

> > Augustus > gusht 'August', Lat. avunculus > ungj 'uncle', etc.)
>
> Exactly. Both inherited and Latin /au/ give Albanian /a/ (lost when
> initial and unstressed). This can only mean that the name Vlorë is
> neither inherited nor even taken directly from Latin. It _must_ be

a

> loan from a language (presumably Romance or Slavic) that had /aw/

or

> /av/ after Albanian had changed *au to /a/, so that the the second
> element of the diphthong (or its consonantal reflex) was

interpreted as

> /v/ in Albanian.
>
> > -ona as prefix (probably shared with Celtic) is very present in
> > Illyrian toponymy: Emona (today Lubjana), Salona (today Solin),
> > Narona (today Norin), Skardona (today Skradin) - even in XV

century

> > we have evidence of its use in Kosova: Grabanica < Grabana + -

ica,

> > besides Grabona. So, I don't see any reason why such suffix

didn't

> > persist and resist also in early times. Form Aulo:na, like you
> > present it was never attested.
>
> The <o> of ancient <Aulona> was long /o:/ (that's why I provided a
> length-mark, though of course ancient scribes simply wrote <o>).

The

> Latin stress on the penult is sufficient evidence of that.
>
> > [AK] But we are not talking for England or France, but for

territory

> > inhabited by Albanians in the past.
>
> Late Latin (and Proto-Romance) articu- < arcticus was not

restricted to

> France. Compare Italian artico, Spanish ártico, etc.
>
> Piotr

************
Look, Piotr, I know that you will keep your position, to use one
Slavic idiom, like "pijan plota" and really I am tired from yours
constant objections with and without any arguments. I will beg Chris,
if he agree, to continue our discussion on his Forum, where such kind
of themes are very common. I hope we will have also the help of one
of the best scholar in this issue, Mr. Xavier Delamarre.

Konushevci