Re: [tied] Re: Enclosed Places

----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 1:05 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Enclosed Places


> > More generally, it seems to be composed of the *k-r- (*kW-l, *g-l-

> > etc etc) root (see Bomhard for a flood of these "turn, wrap,
> rotate"
> > roots, another sign it was borrowed) plus a passive participle
> > forming *-t- or -dH-, thus "something that has been encircled"
(cf
> > Latin cardo "axis"; cor, cordis "heart (center of the body)".

It's probably not Austronesian, since its roots has the general
structure C1VC2VC3 where C2VC3 is the stem and C1 a prefix. But verbs
with passive focus do have a suffix -n, which one might perhaps
compare to the IE ppp -t- (through so-called 'ablaut', whatever the
real mechanism behind it is).

> Also the Austronesian
*kurung/*kuDung "enclosure" root would seem to have suffix, which
also isn't Austronesian (note the variant forms).

You mentioned one above! More to the point, it is through the addition of
suffixes that the 3rd consonant reappears in Oceanic languages.

If you reread the messages in Austronesian (around #454, several threads),
you'd note that:

a) Perhaps *kuDung isn't related to *kurung.
b) +kurung could be explained as a loan from Javanese to Malay, and thence
spread far and wide.
c) The 'root', or perhaps 'theme' (I've seen the word 'rhizeme' used) is
liquid + round-vowel + ng. I dug up half a dozen examples from Proto-Tai -
I don't think I reported them - meanings 'groove, ditch, channel' (the
dodgiest), 'room', 'cage', 'drum', 'tube, cylinder' and 'vessel, utensil;
box, trunk; basket with a lid'. If you allow the first, I can throw in Thai
khlOng 'canal' and I could perhaps add a word for 'snare'. The meanings are
more like of 'enclosure' than 'turn, wrap, rotate'. I thought you wanted
the meaning 'turn' for kVr, anyway.

Wrong meaning, wrong pair of consonants, wrong list.

> But what? I noted that in some Austro-Asiatic(?) language (I read it in
austronesian, I believe) *kin- is an animal prefix, which may make it the
ancestor of the global 'dog' word.

Not so global. I was having enough trouble gathering words with velars,
never mind k..n. In my sampling I found seven verbs beginning with velars,
but the three of them with following nasals split 3-ways - /m/, /n/ and
/ng/. Not so global.

> Has *k-r- "encircle" a similar source?

Is this a homophone of *k-r 'turn, wrap, rotate' ? Methinks you're
twisiting and turning a bit too much.

Torsten






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