Re: [tied] Re: Yers

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 23079
Date: 2003-06-11

Eva,
 
Let me begin by stating the obvious: cross-linguistic similarities are a dime a dozen and in most cases they are coincidental. For an etymological proposal to make sense, it has to be sound both formally and semantically; additionally, a plausible historical scenario must be offered to explain the trajectory of a word in time and space. The comparanda cited in Vassil's list are gleaned from an odd selection of languages -- which is probably an effect of the amateurish method used: take whatever dictionaries or word-lists are available and search for lookalikes. The compiler of the list evidently had access to a number of Pamir and Dardic glossaries and used them indiscriminately. The Dardic languages aren't Iranian, to begin with; the fact that they are Indo-Iranian is irrelevant if you want to support the influence of _Iranian_ on Bulgarian. If the words in question have got Iranian counterparts, why use Dardic material? If they haven't, they are useless, unless you want to suggest that the Proto-Bulgars came from the Hindukush and were Dardic rather than Iranian.
 
They are useless anyway if one lists them without attempting a linguistic and historical analysis. Accidental pseudo-cognacy is more common than you might think (but old Cybalisters should know it full well by now). Who hasn't seen a demonstration that Hungarian is a close cousin of Sumerian, or that Albanian is related to Etruscan, based on a list of alleged "cognates"?
 
An additional difficulty with some of the languages used by Dobrev (?) (for example Munjani, Ishkashmi, Sarikoli and Pashto) is that they have been affected by massive sound changes in relatively recent times, so that they differ rather drastically even from their close relatives. It is not easy to see that e.g. Munjani <yu:> '1', <lu> '2' and <x^iroy> '3' are inherited Iranian numerals, or that Sarikoli <c^Ewg> is a regular reflex of *karta- 'done'. To understand such relations, you must do some elementary reading on the historical phonology of the Iranian languages first. The mere _surface_ similarity between the listed items and a hypothetical Iranian source of Bulgarian words can't be taken seriously. I completely agree with your last sentence, but I don't see any promising pattern emerge from this random collection of words.
 
I have no Bulgarian etymological dictionary to hand, but I suspect many of the would-be Iranianisms aren't all that mysterious and have perfectly ordinary and generally accepted etymologies. For example, <kUs^ta> is certainly Slavic (< *ko~tja, cf. SCr. kuc'a, Maced. kuk'a). It's sadly evident that Dobrev (or whoever is the culprit here) did not control his "evidence" in any way, and that Vassil also failed to verify it. This is not the way to do lingusitics professionally.
 
Piotr
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: fortuna11111
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 4:32 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Yers

Kaka is a word used in Northern India, for example.   You will find
"kaka" from mundzhani in Vassil's list (I presume, compiled from
Dobrev's books).

bulg. lelja - Dardic lola "aunt"
bulg. sholjo - Dardic shuli "small"
bulg. bulka - Mundzhani "wula" "woman, wife"
(Slavic - nevesta, the word is not often used in Bulgarian, sounds
a bit strange if someone says where is your "nevesta")

And how about others, connected with everyday life:

bulg. kUshta, pashto kUshtaj "house", dardic ghosht
bulg. kUrpa "towel", ishkamiti kUrpa, sarikoli kUrpa

The list potentially contains a lot of mistakes (e.g. words that
have parallels closer - in Slavic or in Greek).  But I think the only
solution will be to look for regular patterns.