Re: [tied] Re: Yers

--- fortuna11111 <fortuna11111@...> wrote:

> > When
> > > did the wars
> > > you mean take place? At the time of Boris?
> >
> > GK: Yes. They were prompted by the resistance
> of
> > a majority of the Proto-Bulgar aristocracy to the
> > imposition of Christianity. The last "blow" was
> also
> > delivered by Boris, coming out of retirement in
> 893 to
> > eliminate a neo-Pagan threat supported by his son
> > Vladimir. I'm surprised you don't know your own
> > history, Eva...
>
> (Eva)There are other theories on that as well.

*****GK: Such as?*****

In order

> to be able to
> tell you that there are other theories, supposedly,
> I know about
> the first ones as well, so I don't know what you are
> assuming.

*****GK: That sounds like evasive mumbo-jumbo to me,
Eva.****

I

> have read about Boris killing a significant part of
> the aristocracy
> and blinding his own son. Since there is so much
> debate in my
> country lately on the subject, I refrain from taking
> a stance on the
> old version or the new ones as being the last
> possible.

*****GK: What are these new versions? *****

Yet any

> theories about a protobulgar "implosion" go very far
> from what I
> have read in history books.

*****GK: Pretty standard stuff it seems to me. You
don't have to be a genius to realize that when a
population constantly mentioned for a couple of
centuries suddenly disappears from the sources [and
here the key is the abandonment of the Bulgar-Slav
contrast] something rather important has happened.****

This is already further

> interpretation
> on your part and I can't help but naming it exactly
> so - an
> interpretation, accroding to its wording.

*****GK: What are the alternative interpretations? And
by that I don't mean sophomoric uneducated "opinion",
but something based on the sources and logically
developed.*****

>
> >
> > Btw, he
> > > has never
> > > been presented negatively by Bulgarian
> historians.
> >
> > GK: Why should he? He gave Bulgaria to the
> Slavs
> > (:=)))
>
> Bulgaria is Bulgaria, we don't look at it as being
> given to anyone,
> even when we speak of our various roots. Your logic
> sounds a
> bit weird to me.

*****GK: My dear Eva, you have a very weird sense of
weirdness (:=)) Consider the fact that the pristine
Bulgar state was ruled by a Proto-Bulgar aristocracy,
with the majority Slavs in a subordinate position. In
the latter part of the 9th century, thanks largely to
the decisions and activities of Boris, the Slavs
became the predominant ruling force of the state, and
the Proto-Bulgars were phased out at the top (not
comprehensively, things like that are never
comprehensive) but very much as to numbers and
influence. There is nothing odd whatsoever about
describing this process in the manner I did. What is
your alternative "interpretation"?*****

>
> >
> > > I am really
> > > amused to read all this. So the following
> Golden
> > > Age must have
> > > been the death of the Bulgars?
> >
> > GK: Of the Proto-Bulgars, not of the Bulgars
> (by
> > then the label meant the Slavic speakers).
>
> It is not quite clear what was meant with what.
> This is simply
> interpretation and I do not see a reason to keep
> bickering on the
> subject.

*****GK: More meaningless mumbo-jumbo, Eva. Either you
have something to say in response or you don't.*****

>
> > > I hear the term Cyrillomethodianism for the
> first
> > > time. Sounds
> > > like all other -isms. Do you describe this as a
> > > movement of a
> > > sort?
> >
> > GK: There is a vast literature on this, Eva.
> Sts.
> > Constantine/Cyril and St. Methodius and their
> > disciples.
>
> You are simply ridiculous, George. The 24th of May
> is one of the
> biggest holidays in Bulgaria - the day of the
> Slavonic alphabet. I
> was christened on that day. You are trying to tell
> me I have not
> heard of Cyrill and Methodius?

*****GK: I am not trying to tell you anything. If you
don't wish to be undervalued or misunderstood, don't
make ambiguous or disingenuous comments.*****

>
> I was just discussing the funny terms you use for
> them and their
> mission. It sounds almost like communism to me and
> not
> applicable to the events in question (the creation
> of the alphabet,
> the travelling of the brothers, their sessions in
> the Vatican, their
> mission in Moravia, etc.). Most of all, it sounds
> like the words of
> a Someone who wrote on the subject and nothing more.
> Like
> one possible interpretation. So I asked you what
> you mean in
> choosing such big words. A political party? :-)

******GK: Putting this claptrap aside, you might have
developed the following, which is the only relevant
part of your yakety yak on the issue:

>
> > > There are, actually findings of carved crosses
> with
> > > proto-Bulgarian words. I guess there were such
> > > attempts, but
> > > not much evidence is found on them, so they must
> > > have been a
> > > few.
> >
> > GK: One wonders what would have happened in
> > Bulgaria if the Proto-Bulgars had accepted
> > Christianity, say, in the early 9th c., under
> Krum.
>
> In the 9th century under Krum? Look it up, George,
> see when
> Krum ruled Bulgaria.

*****GK: I won't pick up on this since you corrected
yourself in a separate post.*****

>
> > Perhaps there might have been some Byzantine
> > Constantine who would have developed an alphabet
> for
> > them plus a liturgy plus the lot. The most
> optimistic
> > scenario would have had the modern Bulgarians
> speaking
> > a Turkic dialect (:=))))
>
> The whole differentiation between Slav and Bulgar is
> irrelevant to
> us, Bulgarians. It is relevant only to the extent
> that it helps us
> trace our roots and learn more about our traditions.
> It is not an
> either-or thinking.
>
> Which you probably fail to understand.

*****GK: My interest here is strictly historical. I
have, naturally, no issue of "roots" to learn and
discover. But when someone with that kind of an agenda
comes up with a categorical statement (the
Proto-Bulgars were Iranic-speaking, end of discussion)
which runs so contrary to established science, I am
obviously intrigued and would like substantiation. So
far you've given us nothing. Not even an
"interpretation" as distinct from a pertinacious and
quite amateurish "opinion".******


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