From: Patrick C. Ryan
Message: 19285
Date: 2003-02-26
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...>
To: "Patrick C. Ryan" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 2:46 PM
Subject: Re[4]: [tied] More nonsense: Is English /d/ truely voiced?
> At 2:22:42 PM on Tuesday, February 25, 2003, Patrick C. Ryan
> wrote:
>
> >>> First off, what language has a "voiceless /d/" and how
> >>> would it contrast with a "voiceless /t/"?
>
> >> Icelandic. Stefán Einarsson, _Icelandic_, p. 13:
>
> >> _d_ is always voiceless. Initially it sounds like English
> >> _d_ [d]: _dagur_ [da:qYr.] day. Medially and finally it
> >> sounds more like _t_ (French _t_) and is marked [d.].
>
> > This sounds like a possible former student of Ladefoged.
>
> Hardly: L. got his PhD in 1959, and S.E.'s text on modern
> Icelandic was published in 1945.
>
> > What in God's name does "sounds like English _d_ mean???
> > Since we have determined that English /d/ is not voiceless
> > (in most dialects),
>
> No, we haven't. The evidence presented here has clearly
> shown: that there is little or no voicing of English /d-/ in
> some of the most common dialects; that voice onset in
> English /d-/ typically occurs very late, somewhere in a very
> short interval around the release; and that even in the
> absence of voicing the vocal folds are maintained in a
> position appropriate for voicing.
[PCR]
This is a perfect example of why our discussions ramble on interminably with little progress on the question at hand.
No evidence has clearly been presented here "there is ... no voicing of English /d-/ in some of the *most common* dialects". At best, it occurs in some substandard speech.
Now, if what I have written above is NOT true, name just one common dialect where it is true. Just one!
> > this description is inaccurate at best, ignorant at worst.
>
> >> E.g., <døkk> 'dark' (nom.sing.fem.) [tøhk].
>
> > If Icelandic initial /d/ sounds like English /d/, then why
> > is it being notated as "t"?
>
> > It looks like Icelandic initial [d] is simple an
> > unaspirated /t/.
>
> You make my point.
[PCR]
Hardly. English initial _d_ is not simply an unaspirated /t/.
Pat
PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)