Re: [tied] PIE *ts ?

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:34:57 +0000, "Glen Gordon"
<glengordon01@...> wrote:

>Miguel:
>>The terminus post quem is more difficult to assess. Do only
>>Neolithic peples have use for a word for "six"? I have no hard
>>evidence for that.
>
>Why wouldn't they? I'm pretty sure that mesolithic people could
>have terms for "six" and even required it in their daily life
>where trade is concerned, of which we know there was plenty.
>It's kinda hard to trade without a "six" at your disposal and
>you don't have to be neolithic to trade.

So why "The Semitic borrowings must necessarily have been introduced
into IE during the neolithic"?

>Concerning the allophonic affricate *[ts]:
>>On the other hand, subphonemic allophones can remain stable for
>>thousands of years.
>
>With a word like *dHgHo:m, the affricate allophone could only
>have formed once the cluster *dHgH- had formed. I've already
>dated the loss of unaccented schwa to the point of transition
>between Mid IE and Late IE (5000 BCE). This is the event that
>caused the clusters in the first place. Wouldn't this be
>your "terminus ante quem"?

No. The affricate allophone in *dhghom- is post-PIE, and I wasn't
considering it. What I considered was the /tst/ allophone out of /tt/
(/dt/), which *is* PIE (e.g. Hitt. ezzateni /etsteni/ < *ed-teni "you
guys eat"). There was no schwa between root and the suffix.

>Me:
>>Why can't Tocharian /tk-/ come from an affricatized *dHgH-?
>
>Miguel:
>>Tocharian A has tkam. < *dhg^hó:m and cka:car < *dhugh&2té:r,
>
>Problem: *dHgHom- and *dHugHxter- are different in that the
>former contains an initial consonant cluster and the latter does
>not. You neglected to plug that fact into your Occam's Razor
>machine.

Huh? That fact was all I mentioned (the non-cluster is subject to
Grassman's law (Tocharain version), while the cluster is not,
otherwise we'd had *ckam).

>There must be something that shows what the affricate would
>have become in Tocharian. You mean to say that there is no
>attestation whatsoever of *sedtos, *edti, *tkei- and the like
>in Tocharian?

*tt -> *tst gives /st/ in Tocharian.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...