Re: Afro-Asiatic

In reply to Glen's question

> >What is the date of the Aurignacian
> >and Gravetian cultures > in the steppes?
>
> John:
> >Guess what Glen
> >
> >Aurignacian 40,000 - 35,000 BCE
> >Gravetian 30,000 - 25,000 BCE
> >
> >Interesting eh!

Glen wrote

> Yes, the dates are interesting (holding back titulation) but do you

mean

> that these are the dates "out of Africa" or "on the _steppes_". If

they are

> on the steppes by such an early time, then I'm disturbed.

Hmm.. Homo sapiens seem to have spread very rapidly out of Africa and
onto the steppe by 40,000 BCE. Gravetian was born on the Steppe (as
the Steppes extended then to France - That climatological site you
mentioned shows it clearly). Why disturbed?

> Glen (ME):
> >>Interesting stuff. Well, they would be Nostratics minus the
> >>AfroAsiatic languages.

Yup!

> Apparently after re-reading Bomhard and thrashing the evil Mr Foote,

I found

> Bernal essentially implying the same thing and with some explanations

of the

> mesolithic in Africa related to Kenya.

<Snip> I wrote

> >Mesolithic-late Paleolithic Helwan in Egypt was 15,000 >BCE, a
> >nice date for Nostratics. Capsian in North Africa was a >little

later,

> >(10,000 BCE, could have been Berber). Ibero-Maurasian >(a Capsian
> >derivative) moved into Spain from 10,000 - 8,500 BCE. >Could your

Semitish

> >really have been Berberish?

Glen replied

> Honestly? Berberish? Hmmm, I wonder. I know little of Berber. The

first

> question is: would this Berberish have Semitic-looking numerals like

*shex

> for "six" and *sepx for "seven" to explain the Basque loans. The

Basque

> would have had to have borrowed /sei/ and /zazpi/ early. I've already
> theorized that /sei/ would derive from a pre-Basque form *s'eCi where

"C" is

> a lost consonant. A sibilant explains this loss best - thus perhaps

*s'es'i.

> The numeral /zazpi/ cannot be explained rationally in terms of Basque
> elements and must be either ancient or borrowed or both. It would

derive

> from *sapsi. Does Berber explain this?

Is there a Berberist in the House? Being a joint Afro-Asiatic
language, I would suspect something as fundamental as a numbering
system would be common between Semitic and Berber... After all, common
numbering systems are found in IE and AN.

> We still have agriculturalists flowing into Europe from Anatolia so

even so,

> we would have two intrusive languages: Berberish and Semitish. I

wouldn't

> make sense that this Berberish is the result of all these borrowings

from

> Etruscan to Basque, despite whatever the numerous agriculturalists

were

> speaking.

Yup, that makes sense, especially in the Western Mediterranean. I also
wonder whether this isn't a good argument for resuccitating an Iberian
origin for Bell Beakers (a favourite of mine, but unfortunately fairly
weekly supported at the moment archaeologically). Iberian seems
totally unrelated to Basque-Vasconian, so a Berberish origin via
mesolithic North Africa, and a subsequent spread out of Iberia via Bell
Beakers (or god forbid, as a religious language accompanying the
megaliths! The latter is an old hoary chestnut which I hope is not
confirmed. Megaliths have been used for everything from UFOs to
Atlantis myths)

> >Kebaran in Israel was 12,000 BCE and developed into Natufian from
> >10,000 BCE. Zarzian in the Zagros was 12,000 BCE developing into a
> >string of cultures (could have been Elamite/Dravidian)
>
> No it couldn't have, but Kartvelian at 12,000 BCE seems good. Perhaps

"this

> string of cultures" is Eurasiatic? Kartvelian and Eurasiatic seem to

share

> innovative features seperate from AfroAsiatic.

Hmm... Interesting. That would make incipient Zagros Agriculture a
proto-Kartvellian-Eurasiatic breakthrough.

> >with Pontic Tardenosian moving from the Balkans from 10,000 - 8,500
>BCE
> >into the Eurasian forest zone. Is this too late for your
>Eurasiatic group
> >Glen?
>
> These Tardenosians aren't Nostratic. Looks like a T-Group language.

NEC or

> Caucasic perhaps? What direction are they going to the Eurasian

forest zone

> - east towards the steppes right? Sounds like the beginnings of the

NEC

> language after it left Hurro-Urartean and Hattic behind in Anatolia.

Could be. It would fit well. It leaves us with a gap, though, in the
spread of Eurasiatics onto the Steppe. There is the mesolithic
Romanovka, Yangelsk cultures which appeared in the Urals-Ukraine region
from the south circa 9000-6000 BCE. Cemetries along the Dneipr show
fairly sedentary fishing villages using huge nets, and as
hunter-gatherers they seem to have ranged far and wide across the
region. In south Central Asia, the Tepe Hissar culture, found along
the mountainous rim from the Amu Darya to Issuk Kul have been dated
from 7,000 to 5,000 BCE with hunters following the hoved and horned...
the Keltiminar culture (circa 6,000-4,000, found from Kwarezm in the
south throughout Minutusk basin and into the forest region could be
either early Samoyedic, Altaic or maybe a mixture of the two. Related
cultures seem to have spread the Arshad-khad paintings to the Kentei
Mountains in Mongolia, which would strongly suggest Altaics. What do
you think Glen... How do they fit?

Regards

John