Re: Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:49 AM

Subject: [cybalist] Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?


Brent said:

    1. As I am beginning to understand from Cyril's site the Tocharian
language is considered to be related to the Italo-Celtic-etc in
language in general – with some ties to German-Balto-Slavic language
structure/vocabulary.  They were an apparently very nomadic group, that
moved from some area close to Indo-Aryans (per Alexander's SIEM map)
eastward to an area north of the Tibetian Plateau (+/- 80o longitude –
from another source, sometime after the 5th Centuray BC)  From your
response  I got that the language must have split off after the
Anatolians left.   I would assume, that since they shared language
structure with the combined German-Balto-Slavic group that:     1. They
must have been originally in direct contact with them, at an early
stage.       2. That the German-etc. group was not yet separated into
its factions and    3. That the German-etc. group had not yet migrated
from its position adjacent to the Celtic-Italo group.    1 thru 3
suggests that they must have left at a fairly early stage. Your
comments that they don't have a lot in common with IE languages could
confirm the early departure – as you noted. 
I haven't noticed anything being said about a high correlation with
Indo-Aryan language structure/vocabulary – which was evidently also in
the vicinity (don't know this is true, have to infer it – since I
havn't seen it stated one way or the other).  Does this suggest that
the Tocharian language separated after the main PIE groups split into
its 3 remaining braches, or before they separate?  (Northern Branch,
Indo-Aryan, and  Balkain Branches). Cyril clickable tree implies a date
of about 2500 BCE as an approximate time, and this is close to that
time of separation – as I understand it. Other sources have implied a
later date for the separation of the Tocharian Language.  What are your
thoughts?

2. I was surprised by the information in item 2. I didn't realize that
the relationships between the fractions were so much in dispute.  But
in general - from your responses, it sounds like Italic, Venetic and
Celtic are more related to each other than to Illyrian – suggesting an
early split off for Illyrian – if it is indeed related at all.-
Italic+Venetic separated from Celtic next and Italic and Venetic
separated last.  Is this correct? Based on your comments, is it
possible to estimate a time when the language groups may have separated?
....

4. I understand, from incidentail comments at Cyril site, that the
Cimmerians are considered to be descendants of the Indo-Aryans and
probably are descendants of the group that was to also have invaded
India (Indic).  I am doing a lot of reading-between-the-lines here – do
you know if that is correct?  From what I can see of maps of the Indo
group they originated somewheres  -from North of the Caspian Sea, to
East of it (Arial Sea) – But as you pointed out, the Cimmerians are
usually thought to have come north of the Black Sea. So this seems
contradictory.  Do you have, or does anyone have any more information
about this?  Any idea when the language may have separated from the
root group?

Brent,

I'm too busy at the moment to answer all your questions at once. (1) and (2) will take some explaining, so let me take my time. As for (4), I'd say that the Cimmerians were quite likely Aryan (Indo-Iranian) or, if ethnically mixed, had a strong Aryan admixture, but this is just an educated guess which may be completely wrong. I daren't discuss the question if they were linguistically closer to the Indic branch that to the Iranian, as I'm far from sure that they were either. Even some of the extant Aryan languages (the "Dardic" group) cause serious classificatory difficulties. What can we say about a language of which we have no records whatsoever?

Best regards,

Piotr