Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?

On Nov 30th Piotr Said:
Hi, Brent, welcome to this group.
You ask good questions. I wish I had equally good answers.
1. Tocharian doesn't fit into any neat classificatory scheme, which
probably means that it split off very early. On the other hand it's
possible that linguistic traits reflecting the original affinities of
Tocharian were obscured beyond recognition in the long course of its
independent development and contacts with non-Indo-European
languages....
2. What I take to be the majority opinion is that Venetic is a close
relative of Italic or even a member of the same branch as Latin, Oscan,
Umbrian etc.....
3. Certainly not later than about 2000 BC, but just how early -- hm,
that's anybody's guess.
4. The Cimmerians occupied the lands north of the Black Sea before the
Scythians, who overran that area in the 8th century BC.....
5. Some people say that the Philistines were Indo-European like some
(most? all?) other groups involved in the Sea movement....


Piotr
Thanks for the detailed response, its much more than I expected.
There is fascinating information here.

The reason I asked questions 1-4 is because I am interested in seeing a
IE Language tree, hopefully one reasonably associated with time
intervals. I haven't been able to find one, so I am trying to draw
one up from the information I have found on the Web, principally from
Cyril site. Questions 1-4 dealt with areas for which there seemed to
be contradictory or incomplete information.

I spent some time re-reading and mulling over your informative
response and I have a few comments, questions and remarks. All of
which will undoubtedly reveal my naivete and inexperience on the
subject area – I hope you don't mind.

1. As I am beginning to understand from Cyril's site the Tocharian
language is considered to be related to the Italo-Celtic-etc in
language in general – with some ties to German-Balto-Slavic language
structure/vocabulary. They were an apparently very nomadic group, that
moved from some area close to Indo-Aryans (per Alexander's SIEM map)
eastward to an area north of the Tibetian Plateau (+/- 80o longitude –
from another source, sometime after the 5th Centuray BC) From your
response I got that the language must have split off after the
Anatolians left. I would assume, that since they shared language
structure with the combined German-Balto-Slavic group that: 1. They
must have been originally in direct contact with them, at an early
stage. 2. That the German-etc. group was not yet separated into
its factions and 3. That the German-etc. group had not yet migrated
from its position adjacent to the Celtic-Italo group. 1 thru 3
suggests that they must have left at a fairly early stage. Your
comments that they don't have a lot in common with IE languages could
confirm the early departure – as you noted.
I haven't noticed anything being said about a high correlation with
Indo-Aryan language structure/vocabulary – which was evidently also in
the vicinity (don't know this is true, have to infer it – since I
havn't seen it stated one way or the other). Does this suggest that
the Tocharian language separated after the main PIE groups split into
its 3 remaining braches, or before they separate? (Northern Branch,
Indo-Aryan, and Balkain Branches). Cyril clickable tree implies a date
of about 2500 BCE as an approximate time, and this is close to that
time of separation – as I understand it. Other sources have implied a
later date for the separation of the Tocharian Language. What are your
thoughts?

2. I was surprised by the information in item 2. I didn't realize that
the relationships between the fractions were so much in dispute. But
in general - from your responses, it sounds like Italic, Venetic and
Celtic are more related to each other than to Illyrian – suggesting an
early split off for Illyrian – if it is indeed related at all.-
Italic+Venetic separated from Celtic next and Italic and Venetic
separated last. Is this correct? Based on your comments, is it
possible to estimate a time when the language groups may have separated?

3. Very clear, thanks

4. I understand, from incidentail comments at Cyril site, that the
Cimmerians are considered to be descendants of the Indo-Aryans and
probably are descendants of the group that was to also have invaded
India (Indic). I am doing a lot of reading-between-the-lines here – do
you know if that is correct? From what I can see of maps of the Indo
group they originated somewheres -from North of the Caspian Sea, to
East of it (Arial Sea) – But as you pointed out, the Cimmerians are
usually thought to have come north of the Black Sea. So this seems
contradictory. Do you have, or does anyone have any more information
about this? Any idea when the language may have separated from the
root group?

5. Question 5 was a non-related question, meant to be addressed on the
Sea People in general, not just focus on the Philistines. But I am
glad it worked out that way – Learned a lot.

Hope I haven't run you off, with my poorly informed questions. Really
appreciated your first informative response.

Best Wishes
Brent