Re: Ludlings

Let me introduce myself to the list:
Stein Håvard Frølandshagen
17 yrs.
Norwegian student

------------------------------------

I know a Norwegian ludling consisting of this transformation:

C ---> CoC

accordingly,

jeg kan snakke røverspråk, jeg
(I can speak røverspråk (=the name of this ludling), I)

--->

jojegog kokanon sosnonakokkoke rorøvoverorsospoproråkok, jojegog

I wonder how one could come up with such a transformation of
consonants as Norwegian has enough of them allready. Many words get
rather unpronounceable. It seems that the written language is the
base for the transformation as indicated by jeg ---> jojegog, and
snakke ---> sosnonakokkoke. 'g' in 'jeg' is pronounced as a semivowel
close to english 'y' in 'day'. I can hardly imagine how native
speakers could recognise 'kk' as two phonemes. So the written
language is without doubt the base for the transformation.

The 'o' in CoC is phonemically realised as /o/ for expected /u/.



Håvard

--- In phoNet@y..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
> Actually, there is a question I'd like to ask the list. It is about
so-called ludlings, as linguists call them, or 'secret languages'
(word-transforming games like Pig Latin). They often reveal
interesting things about intuitive phonological analysis. One ludling
that was popular among Polish children when I was a schoolboy
consists in the following vowel-splitting transformation:
>
> V --> VgV for all vowels.
>
> For example, <stary hipopotam> 'old hippo' --> <stagarygy
higipogopogotagam>.
>
> The game would not work in English too well, but it could be
imitated in any language in which vowel quality is not influenced by
stress, e.g. in Spanish:
>
> <bueno tiempo> --> <bueguenogo tieguempogo>, I presume.
>
> Now, what's interesting here is that the Polish nasal vowels spelt
<a,> and <e,> (with a cedilla-like diacritic) -- often described as
nasal [o~] and nasal [e~], but actually realised as diphthongs (in
which the second element may be analysed as an allophonic variant of
a nasal consonant) -- become -ogoN-/-egeN- rather than -oNgoN-/-eNgeN-
. This supports a biphonemic /VN/ interpretation of Polish nasal
vowels.
>
> The game also sheds some light on the phonemic status of the Polish
vowels spelt <i> (pronounced [i]) and <y> (a high central vowel),
which are in more-or-less complementary distribution. The fact that -
i- is transformed into -igi- and -y- into -ygy- (though -gy- does not
normally occur in Polish) suggests that speakers treat these sounds
as distinct phonemes.
>
> My question is: are there any traditional ludlings in your native
languages? and if so, are there any interesting phonological
phenomena involved in their production?
>
> Piotr
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Piotr Gasiorowski
> To: phoNet@y...
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [phoNet] Hello?
>
>
> I hope it isn't. The members are still there. Anyone's welcome to
start a new discussion any time.
>
> Piotr
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dreamertwo@h...
> To: phoNet@y...
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 4:27 PM
> Subject: [phoNet] Hello?
>
>
> Is this list dead?
>
> Adam