From: Petra Kieffer-Pülz
Message: 4752
Date: 2016-09-21
Am 21.09.2016 um 08:17 schrieb Petra Kieffer-Pülz kiepue@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:Hi Cris,
the Pali databank is the Chaṭṭhasaṅgāyana CDRom which is available as version 3 and 4 from the Vipassana Research Institute in Igatpuri (www.vridhamma.org). It contains the Pāli canonical scriptures, commentaries, and many subcommentaries, and allows to search that material in several scripts including the roman script, and to search several sections, for instance only canonical, only commentarial scriptures, or only Vinaya, only Abhidhamma, etc. And both criteria also can be combined, i.e. search only canonical sutta texts, etc. This is the best instrument to see whether a word you find in Narada or any other Pali reader/grammar exists, and how it is used. In your case I would restrict myself to canonical examples in the beginning.Regarding the sentence „Would you bring the letter that is inside the house“ you are specifying the place where the letter is, you do not say that one should bring the letter from within the house. In the latter case one would expect an ablative, in the first case in real Pāli one could use a relative construction of the types „which letter is in the house, that letter bring“ (yaṃ ghare santaṃ lekhanaṃ, taṃ āhareyyāsi) or simply say lekhanaṃ gharaṃ santaṃ, āhareyyāsi „the letter being in the house, bring.“I would advice you to learn with a book that uses real Pāli sentences, because what you learn with such primers as de Silva’s, Narada’s, etc. is not Pali. Perhaps try Warder.Best,PetraChrisPetra,Where can I find the Pali databank? I checked in the PTS Dictionary and saw that with the Loc. it means, "to bring on to, to put into," and with the Acc., "to take up, fall or go back on." I had noticed that the PTS Dictionary would include specific meanings with a certain case, but didn't take a lot of notice of it--thanks, this really opened my eyes to the importance of this element!I presume that, "Would you bring the letter that is inside the house," in Pāḷi would use "ghara" in the Abl., and also a preposition (if one wanted to specify that it was inside as opposed to just located at the house). I also presume this is a bit more advanced then where I'm presently at, so I'll just concern myself with it at some future point--it'll probably become clear through my studies anyway.I have been using Collins' "A Pali Grammar" to reference different uses of the cases, and occasionally have dipped into Wijsekera's work as well--I'll have to make a point to utilize the latter much more. I am quite eager to delve into Wijsekera's thesis, but will be putting that (and a few others!) off until I've at least finished Nārada's work so I have more of a basis to work from--in fact, I'd like to be actively reading suttas in Pāḷi before reading it whole to give context to what he lays out.Seeing how much literature there is on Pāḷi in German makes me wish I continued with my German studies, but alas. I took 3 years worth in HS and thus have forgotten most of the little I knew =PMettā,On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:54 PM, KHANH TRONG HUYNH testsuda@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>wrote:Dear Chris,I'm sorry that I will not directly response to your question. However, I hope that I would provide you another approach for Pali learning. It is no more than a reference, and all will be up to you.I think firstly you should decide what your goal is. For example, I only want to read and understand the Pali Nikayas as well as translate from Pali to my mother-tongue - Vietnamese, so I almost never face some kinds of difficulty as yours. So, to be honest, when I read your question, I did not know how to reply you correctly and immediately. Petra is far better than me, of course.I also recommend you the book that Petra has already mentioned, you could download here the English version with very nice PDF format:Sincerely yours,Huynh Trong Khanh
From: "petra kieffer-pülz kiepue@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Proper case, and how to indicate 'to' a place, and 'into' a place?Dear Chris,the question which case to use depends on various factors. Direction can be expressed by the acc. (describes the goal of the movement), dat (describes the goal together with the motivation) and loc. (describes the place where the object will be after the movement is completed). Thus one factor is the aspect you want to express. Another factor might be the verb, since some verbs are used with specific cases. This in general can be found in the dictionaries. Furthermore, a usage can change in the course of time, thus it might be that in early texts another case is used than in later texts, or it might be that a specific case is used in one genre of text, whereas in another genre another one is used.The acc. of direction is used together with the acc. of the object in case of transitive verbs as āharati. Thus it could be gharaṃ lekhanaṃ āhareyyāsi. If you want to stress that the letter should be brought into the house I would use the loc. ghare lekhanaṃ āhareyyāsi.If you search the Pali databank you will see that ā-harati is used with the acc., and the loc.; I did not see the dat. being used together with it. For instance yo pana bhikkhu adinnaṃ mukhadhvāraṃ āhāraṃ āhareyya (Vin IV 90,9f.) "If any bhikkhu should convey to the opening of his mouth food that has not been given". Or loc. kumāro ... kaṭṭhaṃ vā kaṭhalaṃ vā mukhe āhareyya (MN I 395) "if the child were to put a stick or a pebble in his mouth".I would recommend to use a syntax in addition to the grammar. If you are able to read German the one by von Hinüber (Kasussyntax) can be recommended, otherwise you should use one of those available in English (Wijesekera, Syntax of the cases in the Pāli Nikāyas).Kind regards,Petra Kieffer-PülzWith the sentence, "Tvaŋ khippaŋ gantvā gharassa lekhanaŋ āhareyyāsi?" (“Would you go immediately and bring the letter to the house?”), I'm correct to have 'ghara' ('house') in the Dat., correct?
I considered Acc. as the goal of motion, but it seems to not make any sense if it's in the Acc. I considered Loc., but it's not 'house' that is supporting the action, but instead the recipient of the action. Or would putting 'house' in the Loc. make it mean "bring the letter in the house" ... ah! That would mean that the letter is located inside the house, no?
How would one construct it in Pāḷi to say to "bring the letter into the house" as distinct form "bring the letter to the house"? I'm guessing that there is a preposition that would have to be used?
The original sentence is 'me' instead of 'house,' but it seemed easier to ponder the different cases with 'house' instead of 'me.' From Nārada, Lesson 12, Exercise B12.Mettā,Chris