Re: Proper case, and how to indicate 'to' a place, and 'into' a place?

Dear Chris,

Thanks for all you have shared with me in the last email.

I could understand your learning approach based on your personality as well as your perception. However, as Petra also mentioned, the Narada's introduction will not help you much in terms of reading the Pali Nikayas as well as the Commentaries and Sub-Commentaries. I could state that if you spend so much time on investigating the issues of that book, you will lose the time that instead could be used for the more valuable factors. Firstly, the sentence structures in the Pali Nikaya, Commentaries & Sub-Commentaries are quite different with those that Ven Narada showed you. Secondly, the Pali word-meaning is based very much on the word-analysis - that means you must be able to divide one word to its smallest elements: prefixes + root + suffixes, therefrom you could decide which meaning it is. Thirdly, cause the Pali language is combined unseparately with the Theravada Buddhism literature, so not only by linguistic perspective that you could really understand what the Buddha said in the Nikayas, but also based on the Commentaries, Sub-Commentaries which are different with the Nikayas in terms of language, as well as your general knowledge of Buddhism.

So, I could funnily say that when reading the Nikayas, you will fight another kind of battle. As if you are currently learning to struggle against the Viking, but when facing your enemies, you realize they are the Mongolian.

With a limited amount of time, you should use best by investing for: [1] Real Pali sentence-strutures knowledge , [2] Word-analysis skill, [3] Commentary & Sub-Commentary searching & understanding skill.

Sincerely yours,

Huynh Trong Khanh

From: "Chris Valade cjvalade@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Proper case, and how to indicate 'to' a place, and 'into' a place?

Khanh,

(I made this a separate message altogether since it's a bit of an essay/reflection =P)

I appreciate and thank you for your advice, you are absolutely correct that one should have a firm concept of just what their goal is in learning Pāḷi, or anything for that matter. For that very reason I understand why many of my questions are things that many that know or are learning Pāḷi haven't worried themselves with. I personally aim to master the language, at least as much as that is possible. With English, I've spent a decent amount of time analysing my own and other's writing, so that interest in nuance carries over into my study of Pāḷi as well. I want to be able to see and feel the nuances of the language just as easily as I do with English (and even in that, my native tongue, it's not always clear!), so I don't mind taking my time on some relatively minor things--although, I want to get through Nārada quickly so I can start to read the Pāḷi Canon as I'm sure that will be a massively helpful means of learning/studying!

Of course, certain personality traits have a huge impact on my approach: when I get interested in something, I get very into it, and I will be very thorough--not quite a perfectionist, but I do at times have to pause, remind myself of my priorities, and consider how much time, effort, and attention a particular thing requires. With Pāḷi for instance, there are a number of things that I wonder about, will ask questions about, look into, but then put it on a list for future reference and move on.

Even though Pāḷi isn't really a spoken language, I believe that to really get into the spirit, the philosophy, of the language itself, one must be able to construct as well as understand encountered constructions. I've heard fluency defined as being able to think in the language, and I look forward to being able to do that with Pāḷi!

I first discovered that each language is it's own philosophy from Hegel and Marx: in Hegel's "Phenomenology" he discusses how 'self-consciousness' asserts itself, needs acknowledgement, and in a footnote the translator indicated that the connotation of 'self-conscious' in German is more about pride and assertion of the self which definitely influenced this philosophy, whereas in English we have the connotation of shame, embarrassment, etc. That was what first gave me insight into how our language shapes our thought. Then in "Capital" Marx at one point remarks that English has a habit of using Romance words for a concept, and the Teutonic for the actual activity, eg, labor vs work. There was also a study I recall looking at how individuals of different cultures described the same object with different adjectives based on the grammatical gender that object has in their language, eg, if 'key' is feminine for their language, it was described as shiny, smooth, etc., whereas if it was masculine it was hard, rigid, etc. Then my study of Hegel's Shorter "Logic" drove this home even further since many of the concepts dealt with are also grammatical concepts, and this isn't an accident.

I used to believe (and I think, but am not sure, that Hegel said this) that something can only be said to exist if it can be expressed, defined, in words. The Buddha has taught me though, that this is not the case =) Language is a guide, an approximation, of reality, and thus it can never be fully conceptualized by language, and trying to do so will lead one to difficulties.

I feel like there was something else I wanted to add, but no matter =)

Mettā,

Chris

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Chris Valade <cjvalade@...> wrote:

Petra,

Where can I find the Pali databank? I checked in the PTS Dictionary and saw that with the Loc. it means, "to bring on to, to put into," and with the Acc., "to take up, fall or go back on." I had noticed that the PTS Dictionary would include specific meanings with a certain case, but didn't take a lot of notice of it--thanks, this really opened my eyes to the importance of this element!

I presume that, "Would you bring the letter that is inside the house," in Pāḷi would use "ghara" in the Abl., and also a preposition (if one wanted to specify that it was inside as opposed to just located at the house). I also presume this is a bit more advanced then where I'm presently at, so I'll just concern myself with it at some future point--it'll probably become clear through my studies anyway.

I have been using Collins' "A Pali Grammar" to reference different uses of the cases, and occasionally have dipped into Wijsekera's work as well--I'll have to make a point to utilize the latter much more. I am quite eager to delve into Wijsekera's thesis, but will be putting that (and a few others!) off until I've at least finished Nārada's work so I have more of a basis to work from--in fact, I'd like to be actively reading suttas in Pāḷi before reading it whole to give context to what he lays out.

Seeing how much literature there is on Pāḷi in German makes me wish I continued with my German studies, but alas. I took 3 years worth in HS and thus have forgotten most of the little I knew =P

Mettā,
Chris

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:54 PM, KHANH TRONG HUYNH testsuda@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Chris,

I'm sorry that I will not directly response to your question. However, I hope that I would provide you another approach for Pali learning. It is no more than a reference, and all will be up to you.

I think firstly you should decide what your goal is. For example, I only want to read and understand the Pali Nikayas as well as translate from Pali to my mother-tongue - Vietnamese, so I almost never face some kinds of difficulty as yours. So, to be honest, when I read your question, I did not know how to reply you correctly and immediately. Petra is far better than me, of course.

I also recommend you the book that Petra has already mentioned, you could download here the English version with very nice PDF format:

Syntax of the Cases in the Pali Nikayas

Syntax of the Cases in the Pali Nikayas

Sincerely yours,

Huynh Trong Khanh

From: "petra kieffer-pülz kiepue@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Proper case, and how to indicate 'to' a place, and 'into' a place?

Dear Chris,

the question which case to use depends on various factors. Direction can be expressed by the acc. (describes the goal of the movement), dat (describes the goal together with the motivation) and loc. (describes the place where the object will be after the movement is completed). Thus one factor is the aspect you want to express. Another factor might be the verb, since some verbs are used with specific cases. This in general can be found in the dictionaries. Furthermore, a usage can change in the course of time, thus it might be that in early texts another case is used than in later texts, or it might be that a specific case is used in one genre of text, whereas in another genre another one is used.

The acc. of direction is used together with the acc. of the object in case of transitive verbs as āharati. Thus it could be gharaṃ lekhanaṃ āhareyyāsi. If you want to stress that the letter should be brought into the house I would use the loc. ghare lekhanaṃ āhareyyāsi.

If you search the Pali databank you will see that ā-harati is used with the acc., and the loc.; I did not see the dat. being used together with it. For instance yo pana bhikkhu adinnaṃ mukhadhvāraṃ āhāraṃ āhareyya (Vin IV 90,9f.) "If any bhikkhu should convey to the opening of his mouth food that has not been given". Or loc. kumāro ... kaṭṭhaṃ vā kaṭhalaṃ vā mukhe āhareyya (MN I 395) "if the child were to put a stick or a pebble in his mouth".

I would recommend to use a syntax in addition to the grammar. If you are able to read German the one by von Hinüber (Kasussyntax) can be recommended, otherwise you should use one of those available in English (Wijesekera, Syntax of the cases in the Pāli Nikāyas).

Kind regards,
Petra Kieffer-Pülz

Am 20.09.2016 um 14:20 schrieb Chris Valade cjvalade@... [palistudy]:

With the sentence, "Tvaŋ khippaŋ gantvā gharassa lekhanaŋ āhareyyāsi?" (“Would you go immediately and bring the letter to the house?”), I'm correct to have 'ghara' ('house') in the Dat., correct?

I considered Acc. as the goal of motion, but it seems to not make any sense if it's in the Acc. I considered Loc., but it's not 'house' that is supporting the action, but instead the recipient of the action. Or would putting 'house' in the Loc. make it mean "bring the letter in the house" ... ah! That would mean that the letter is located inside the house, no?

How would one construct it in Pāḷi to say to "bring the letter into the house" as distinct form "bring the letter to the house"? I'm guessing that there is a preposition that would have to be used?

The original sentence is 'me' instead of 'house,' but it seemed easier to ponder the different cases with 'house' instead of 'me.' From Nārada, Lesson 12, Exercise B12.

Mettā,
Chris

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