Re: Kāmañcettha pahān avinayena vinayo na sambhavati

Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,

I am not certain whether your interpretation is
what the commentator wants to state.

The paragraph from tesu paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ up
to na tehi kiñci vinetī ti vuccati gives examples for  the
ten types of vinaya, From the five saṃvaravinayas 1 is
mentioned as sīlasaṃvarena, 2 to 3 three are mentioned
together as satipaññā-, then follow 4 and 5 (khanti- and viriya).
From among the five pahānavinayas only the first three are
explained, since in 4 and 5 (paṭipassaddhi. and nissaraṇa-)
nothing is to be removed. Thus the statement from 10,8 (yehi
dhammehi tadaṅga-vikhambhana-samuccheda-pahānāni)  up
to 10,14 (vuccati) belongs to the the pahānavinayas 1-3. In the
first sentence  it is explained that one removes anger by giving
up those dhammas which are connected with 1. tadaṅgappahānaṃ,
2. vikkhambhana-, 3 samuccheda-. Thus this sentence grasps the
dhammas belonging to the first three pahānavinayas. The kāmañ
c' ettha sentence then discusses the case that there is no removal
according to the pahānavinayas (i.e. those three just mentioned
in the preceding sentence). In that case all dhammas constituting
pahāna (not only those belonging to pahānavinaya 1-3) are taken
into account. "And if one  removes (anger) according to/through
those dhammas which constitute pahāna, he  is called one who
removes according to/through pahānavinaya on account of the
method (?pariyāyato) (he applies)".

Let me add  two points. Are you sure that pariyāyato mean "figuratively"
here? As we know pariyāya has many meanings. In your translation of
the AN you translated it as "in a provisional way". The reason, why I
ask is that pariyāya appears three times in the relevant paragraph,
twice as an instrumental, and once as an ablative. In the  tena tena
pariyāyena vineti passages, which open and end the paragraph, it
means "way, method". II think that  in pariyāyato it has the same
meaning "on account of the method (which he applies) he is called
one who removes according to/through pahānavinaya?"

Another thing is that vineti has the object in  the accusative. In the kāmañ
sentence there is no accusative, but only an instrumental which as in the preceding
sentences gives the means by which one removes something. Cf. the
passage, a little further down where we have the combination instr. + vineti
(tesu yena kenaci āghātapaṭivinayena vinentopesa vinetī ti pavuccati.
"Even if one removes (whatever) through one or other āghātapaṭivinaya
among the (five types of āghātapaṭivinaya), he is called one who removes).
In the kāmañ sentence you translate tehi vinentopi as "he is
training in those factors", but that probably should be "even if he is removing
(anger) according/through this factors".

With kind regards,
Petra



Am 25.07.2013 um 13:44 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi:

> Dear Petra,
>
> Thank you for replying to my inquiry. I didn’t see the distinction that
> you make between a narrower and broader sense of pahāna. I puzzled over
> the passage last night, still without success, but when I looked at it
> again this morning the meaning suddenly became clear to me.
>
> I think the key to understanding the passage is recognition that this is
> an explanation of the opening line in the Uraga Sutta, yo uppatitaṃ
> vineti kodhaṃ. As I now interpret the comment, the point is that one who
> is *presently in the process of removing anger* (vinentopi) cannot be
> said to have actually accomplished the removal by abandoning
> (pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati). That he is still in the process
> of removing anger is indicated by the present tense verb of the verse
> (vineti) and the present participle of the commentary (vinentopi).
> However, though he has not yet really accomplished the removal by
> abandoning, because he is training in those factors by which abandoning
> occurs (yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi), figuratively
> it can be said that he is removing it through “removal by abandoning.”
>
> Does this seem cogent?
>
> With metta,
>
> Bhikkhu Bodhi
>
> On 7/24/2013 12:33 PM, petra kieffer-pülz wrote:
> >
> > Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,
> >
> > I think pahāna is used in a wider and a narrower sense here. The
> > narrower sense of pahāna is given in the sabbampi cetaṃ sentence (the
> > five types of pahāna).
> > In the second explanation (taṃtaṃ°) pahāna has a wider range,
> > everything can be abandoned, everything can be trained or removed
> > (vinaya).
> > The kāmañ c' ettha sentence to my understanding refers to the case
> > that pahāna in the narrower sense is not given. Then one who removes
> > or trains in any dhamma for which there exists giving up, even if it
> > does not fit the definitions of the five types of pahānavinaya, is
> > figuratively called one who trains acording to pahānavinaya.
> >
> > (Granted that the removal/training (vinayo) according to 'the
> > removal/training consisting in giving up' (pahānavinaya) does not
> > exist, of which dhammas there exists a giving up, even one who trains
> > in/removes them is figuratively called one that trains according to
> > pahānavinaya.)
> >
> > Thus the kāmañ c' ettha sentence takes up the second definition
> > (taṃtaṃ°), and allows the designation pahānavinaya for one who gives
> > up whatever.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Petra Kieffer-Pülz
> >
> > Am 24.07.2013 um 16:59 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi:
> >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > >
> > > The passage below is from the Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I 9, Ee I
> > > 10. I quote the full passage for context, but I am puzzled by the
> > > sentences: Kāmañcettha pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi pana
> > > dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena
> > > vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> > >
> > > This seems to contradict what was said just above, that vinaya occurs
> > > for one who has pahāna. If so, why is it said that pahānavinayena
> > vineti
> > > is used only figuratively (pariyāyato)? I looked up pahānavinayo and
> > > pahānavinayoti in CST Search to see if another Aṭṭhakathā or Tīkā
> > offers
> > > an explanation, but it seems none do. Am I missing something that could
> > > clarify the purport here?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > >
> > > From Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I 9, Ee I 10:
> > > Sabbampi cetaṃ pahānaṃ yasmā cāgaṭṭhena pahānaṃ, vinayanaṭṭhena vinayo,
> > > tasmā ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati, taṃtaṃpahānavato vā tassa tassa
> > > vinayassa sambhavatopetaṃ ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati. Evaṃ
> > > pahānavinayopi pañcadhā bhijjatīti veditabbo. Evamekekassa pañcadhā
> > > bhinnattā dasete vinayā honti.
> > >
> > > Tesu paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> > > aṭṭhavidhena vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccati.
> > Kathaṃ?
> > > Sīlasaṃvarena kāyavacīduccaritāni vinentopi hi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ
> > > vineti, satipaññāsaṃvarehi abhijjhādomanassādīni vinentopi
> > > domanassasampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, khantisaṃvarena sītādīni khamantopi
> > > taṃtaṃāghātavatthusambhavaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, vīriyasaṃvarena
> > > byāpādavitakkaṃ vinentopi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti. Yehi dhammehi
> > > tadaṅgavikkhambhanasamucchedappahānāni honti, tesaṃ dhammānaṃ attani
> > > nibbattanena te te dhamme pajahantopi tadaṅgappahātabbaṃ
> > > vikkhambhetabbaṃ samucchinditabbañca kodhaṃ vineti. Kāmañcettha
> > > pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti,
> > > tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> > > Paṭippassaddhippahānakāle pana vinetabbābhāvato nissaraṇappahānassa ca
> > > anuppādetabbato na tehi kiñci vinetīti vuccati. Evaṃ tesu
> > > paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> > aṭṭhavidhena
> > > vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccatīti.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > > Chuang Yen Monastery
> > > 2020 Route 301
> > > Carmel NY 10512
> > > U.S.A.
> > >
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>
> --
> Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
> Chuang Yen Monastery
> 2020 Route 301
> Carmel NY 10512
> U.S.A.
>
> To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around the world,
> please check:
> Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
> Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/
>
> For my Dhamma lectures and teachings:
> http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes)
> http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html
> http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html
> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23DE0292227250FA
>
> For my public photo albums:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/venbodhi
>
> Sabbe satta avera hontu, abyapajja hontu, anigha hontu, sukhi hontu!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



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