Re: Kāmañcettha pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati

Dear Petra,

Thank you for replying to my inquiry. I didn’t see the distinction that
you make between a narrower and broader sense of pahāna. I puzzled over
the passage last night, still without success, but when I looked at it
again this morning the meaning suddenly became clear to me.

I think the key to understanding the passage is recognition that this is
an explanation of the opening line in the Uraga Sutta, yo uppatitaṃ
vineti kodhaṃ. As I now interpret the comment, the point is that one who
is *presently in the process of removing anger* (vinentopi) cannot be
said to have actually accomplished the removal by abandoning
(pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati). That he is still in the process
of removing anger is indicated by the present tense verb of the verse
(vineti) and the present participle of the commentary (vinentopi).
However, though he has not yet really accomplished the removal by
abandoning, because he is training in those factors by which abandoning
occurs (yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi), figuratively
it can be said that he is removing it through “removal by abandoning.”

Does this seem cogent?

With metta,

Bhikkhu Bodhi



On 7/24/2013 12:33 PM, petra kieffer-pülz wrote:
>
> Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,
>
> I think pahāna is used in a wider and a narrower sense here. The
> narrower sense of pahāna is given in the sabbampi cetaṃ sentence (the
> five types of pahāna).
> In the second explanation (taṃtaṃ°) pahāna has a wider range,
> everything can be abandoned, everything can be trained or removed
> (vinaya).
> The kāmañ c' ettha sentence to my understanding refers to the case
> that pahāna in the narrower sense is not given. Then one who removes
> or trains in any dhamma for which there exists giving up, even if it
> does not fit the definitions of the five types of pahānavinaya, is
> figuratively called one who trains acording to pahānavinaya.
>
> (Granted that the removal/training (vinayo) according to 'the
> removal/training consisting in giving up' (pahānavinaya) does not
> exist, of which dhammas there exists a giving up, even one who trains
> in/removes them is figuratively called one that trains according to
> pahānavinaya.)
>
> Thus the kāmañ c' ettha sentence takes up the second definition
> (taṃtaṃ°), and allows the designation pahānavinaya for one who gives
> up whatever.
>
> Kind regards,
> Petra Kieffer-Pülz
>
> Am 24.07.2013 um 16:59 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi:
>
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > The passage below is from the Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I 9, Ee I
> > 10. I quote the full passage for context, but I am puzzled by the
> > sentences: Kāmañcettha pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi pana
> > dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena
> > vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> >
> > This seems to contradict what was said just above, that vinaya occurs
> > for one who has pahāna. If so, why is it said that pahānavinayena
> vineti
> > is used only figuratively (pariyāyato)? I looked up pahānavinayo and
> > pahānavinayoti in CST Search to see if another Aṭṭhakathā or Tīkā
> offers
> > an explanation, but it seems none do. Am I missing something that could
> > clarify the purport here?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Bhikkhu Bodhi
> >
> > From Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I 9, Ee I 10:
> > Sabbampi cetaṃ pahānaṃ yasmā cāgaṭṭhena pahānaṃ, vinayanaṭṭhena vinayo,
> > tasmā ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati, taṃtaṃpahānavato vā tassa tassa
> > vinayassa sambhavatopetaṃ ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati. Evaṃ
> > pahānavinayopi pañcadhā bhijjatīti veditabbo. Evamekekassa pañcadhā
> > bhinnattā dasete vinayā honti.
> >
> > Tesu paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> > aṭṭhavidhena vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccati.
> Kathaṃ?
> > Sīlasaṃvarena kāyavacīduccaritāni vinentopi hi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ
> > vineti, satipaññāsaṃvarehi abhijjhādomanassādīni vinentopi
> > domanassasampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, khantisaṃvarena sītādīni khamantopi
> > taṃtaṃāghātavatthusambhavaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, vīriyasaṃvarena
> > byāpādavitakkaṃ vinentopi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti. Yehi dhammehi
> > tadaṅgavikkhambhanasamucchedappahānāni honti, tesaṃ dhammānaṃ attani
> > nibbattanena te te dhamme pajahantopi tadaṅgappahātabbaṃ
> > vikkhambhetabbaṃ samucchinditabbañca kodhaṃ vineti. Kāmañcettha
> > pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti,
> > tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> > Paṭippassaddhippahānakāle pana vinetabbābhāvato nissaraṇappahānassa ca
> > anuppādetabbato na tehi kiñci vinetīti vuccati. Evaṃ tesu
> > paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> aṭṭhavidhena
> > vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccatīti.
> >
> > --
> > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > Chuang Yen Monastery
> > 2020 Route 301
> > Carmel NY 10512
> > U.S.A.
> >
> > To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around
> the world,
> > please check:
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.

To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around the world,
please check:
Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/

For my Dhamma lectures and teachings:
http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes)
http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html
http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23DE0292227250FA

For my public photo albums:
http://picasaweb.google.com/venbodhi


Sabbe satta avera hontu, abyapajja hontu, anigha hontu, sukhi hontu!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]